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Post by wills on May 8, 2009 20:28:39 GMT
It's bearing renewal time, but the rear wheel spindle is well and truly seized in. Any tips, apart from heat and brute force? The nut has come off the left hand side and I've doused it in Plusgas and will leave it overnight, but the signs so far are not good.
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Post by salona on May 8, 2009 20:35:55 GMT
Sorry but it sounds like the spindle is seized onto the caliper mounting bracket. Only way is a gentle heat from a blowtorch. Works every time.
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Post by Padster on May 8, 2009 22:25:58 GMT
The wheel spindle can corrode on the adjusters as well as the caliper mounting bracket. It took quite a bit of violence to free the spindle on my 600.
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Post by CD on May 9, 2009 9:26:47 GMT
Grannie/eggs mode ON...
You will need a helper to hold things for you.
Get him/her to hold a heavy hammer the bigger the better (10ib sledge hammer is good) against the head end of the spindle. Use a socket big enough to fit over the spindle head and rest against the swing arm face between the hammer and the bike. A socket extension rod can also be handy.
Now from the other side hit the spindle end with another big hammer (4lb lump is good).
A few good firm blows should shift it.
The hammer blows will go into the spindle but instead of the swing arm springing off, the sledge hammer on absorbs the force the other side stops it moving. The spacer socket allows the spindle to move.
Don't bother tapping away with a small hammer it will most likely not be enough to shock the siezed parts apart and will duff up the threads far more than a few heavy hits with a big hammer.
This will damage the spindle threads so dont leave the nut in place. However the damaged thread end will probably file clean.
When you get the bearings also get some GOOD QUALITY anti sieze grease/paste. Stuff with a high copper content is cheap at bearing / bolt factors. Don't bother with the "cheap" stuff from Halfrauds - its little better than copper tinted grease.
I also use fully sealed bearings with integral soft seals. They cost a bit more but last better than open bearings.
... Grannie/eggs mode OFF
Hope this helps.
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Post by wills on May 14, 2009 23:34:33 GMT
Thanks for the suggestions. Some preliminary dismantling has shown that Salona is right and it's the caliper mounting bracket that's stuck. Warmth and violence awaits it tomorrow!
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Post by amorti on May 15, 2009 11:14:12 GMT
Be sure to replace all the wheel bearings. Heat will melt the grease, and violence won't help much either. Still, it's fun smacking it one  Use a copper mallet or suitable drift so as not to mushroom the thread. |
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Post by salona on May 15, 2009 11:53:39 GMT
Wills, it would be better to buy a replacement spindle in advance. You will definitely ruin the threads on the spindle whilst trying to remove it. The threads are weakened by the holes for the split pin and will end up getting squashed.I bought a replacement from ebay for £12 incl postage but the threads on it are also no good so I am going to have to order another one.  |
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Post by CD on May 15, 2009 13:07:24 GMT
Way back when, I sawed the end off a duffed up spindle and drilled the nut to take a split pin. Never did get around to replacing it.
If you use heavy hammers on both sides the spindle shaft might not mushroom too much. One or two good solid thumps with a heavy backing weight are 10x better than lots of clouts with a smaller hammer.
If you have a suitable pin to go through the hole in the spindle head you might be able to hammer that around to turn the spindle. Once it's moved it will be easier to drift out. The pin will be bent so saw/grind it off and punch out the remains.
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Post by wills on May 16, 2009 22:19:26 GMT
Thanks for all the support and advice. It's becoming a right epic: the little so-and-so has moved maybe half an inch, just so the end of the spindle is level with the swing arm, and it's reluctant to go any further. More heat called for, but I may have to hammerite the swing arm and caliper mount if I overdo it and strip the paint off.
Salona, I was thinking along the same lines myself about having a replacement spindle available.
I'm just about to have a look at the chain. If some previous owner has put a split link in, I'll take it off and then take the swing arm out complete with wheel, so I can then get the thing horizontal over some supports and give it some real welly. Another reason for not wanting the spindle end to start mushrooming is that it will then not pass through the bearings, adjusters etc.
Of course I could always sacrifice the spindle and take the head off with an angle grinder and drift it out in the opposite direction. Decisions, decisions...
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Post by CD on May 17, 2009 9:32:24 GMT
OK here goes....
1 You need a helper
2 You need 2 hammers - a big one and a BIG one.
3 You need suitable drifts and a socket or pipe** to clear the spindle head and another the spindle threads.
When you thump it without support from the BIG hammer on other side you will not only get minimal force where its needed, you will also risk causing lots of damage. Two big hammers etc keep the force where its needed. Its all about controlled force rather than all out violence.
** When the spindle starts to move it might need a long tube to pass through while your helper holds the BIG hammer over the end.
Unfortunately, the paint will get damaged. I'm not so sure about using heat, because how will you get enough heat into the chain adjuster blocks and maybe into the middle of the spindle (which rusts if not greased).
The option of taking out the swing arm makes sense. If the wheel spindle is solid there is a good chance the swing arm pivot beraing as also "past their best". You will still need a helper and the big hammers etc.
More tips...
If the arm is to come out you dont need to split the chain.
If the chain is looking dodgy now would be a good time to replace it.
The same hammer method might be needed on the swing arm spindle.
Dont forget if the spindle head mushrooms it wont go through the wheel. You might need to knock it back and angle-grind it smooth.
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Post by wills on May 17, 2009 10:53:09 GMT
All conclusions I had come to myself, but it's always nice to know someone else thinks the same way.
Paperwork I inherited with the bike showed an an MoT advisory for the back tyre about 18 months ago. The tyre in it now is perfectly OK, so the spindle has obviously been out and back in since then.
While I've got the caliper off I may as well put new seals and pads in that too and change the fluid. Look at it this way, it keeps me out of getting into worse trouble!
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Post by CD on May 17, 2009 12:36:56 GMT
New tyre 17 months ago, dry spindle, nasty salty winter...
If the caliper looks ok you could probably get away with cleaning and re-using the seals. Yamaha charged me over £20 for one caliper set. Ouch.
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Post by wills on May 28, 2009 8:09:09 GMT
The little so and so finally surrendered last night after I got the swing arm out and used even more heat and violence. As expected it was as dry as a bone.
Swing arm itself came out with no problems at all, everything greased as it should have been. Now I'm looking for a new spindle (see separate posting under wanted). If all else fails I might touch up the spindle end on a grinder, as there seems to be enough useable thread after the distorted 5mm or so at the end.
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Post by CD on May 29, 2009 11:09:27 GMT
If its like my 900, the thread sticks out by a few mm so could easily lose 3mm or 5mm from the end. Unlike a car wheel, the spindle thread is not loaded when the bike is used, so as long as there is enough thread to take the nut all should be ok. The only issue will be the locking pin, but the 900 does not have one so is it really needed? You could clean the threads and use loctite.
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Post by salona on May 30, 2009 8:07:22 GMT
It is an MoT requirement to have a locking device fitted to the rear axle (as per section 2.4 of the testers manual) so you would be better using a nyloc nut if you can't get a locking pin back in. You wouldn't get away with re-using the old castle nut with loctite.
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Post by CD on May 30, 2009 9:28:53 GMT
Good point. Oddly enough my 900 has the bog standard spindle and nut, but has no locking device and the nut is ordinary looking with no nyloc or anything.
I've just searched "diversion 600 spindle" on ebay there are quite a few ranging from £15 to £25 including delivery...
150232554246
260395202248
260375714038
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Post by teejayexc on May 30, 2009 9:37:19 GMT
Good point. Oddly enough my 900 has the bog standard spindle and nut, but has no locking device and the nut is ordinary looking with no nyloc or anything. But the rear axle spindle is 'locked' by the clamp on t'other end. |
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Post by m40man on May 30, 2009 9:57:57 GMT
But the rear axle spindle is 'locked' by the clamp on t'other end. ............ and most other bikes? My Fazer 1000 & 600 have ordinary nuts & the VFR has four wheel nuts. No locking devices evident  . ................ I've never had an MOT failure for these standards fittings, or had a rear wheel fall off . |
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Post by teejayexc on May 30, 2009 10:16:01 GMT
............or had a rear wheel fall off . Famous last words?  |
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Post by amorti on May 30, 2009 12:06:13 GMT
It's only a requirement if it was originally fitted. Most bigger and sportsbikes don't, but it seems to be bike with thinner spindles that do, perhaps they don't hold as much tension in the threads??
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Post by m40man on May 30, 2009 12:23:16 GMT
It's only a requirement if it was originally fitted. Most bigger and sportsbikes don't, but it seems to be bike with thinner spindles that do, perhaps they don't hold as much tension in the threads?? That makes no sense, though . The early D6's had a castle nut & split-pin, the later ones didn't. |
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Post by salona on May 30, 2009 15:19:29 GMT
But the rear axle spindle is 'locked' by the clamp on t'other end. ............ and most other bikes? My Fazer 1000 & 600 have ordinary nuts & the VFR has four wheel nuts. No locking devices evident . ................ I've never had an MOT failure for these standards fittings, or had a rear wheel fall off . I can assure you that it is most definitely a reason for failure and as for the fazer's having ordinary nuts, they are in fact crimp nuts which may appear similar to ordinary looking nuts but they are a form of locking device. The reason I am so sure it is an MoT failure is because I have been a qualified MoT Tester for 12 years and have tested hundreds of bikes in that time. Besides, would you really want to ride on a machine that is capable of speeds over 110mph with nothing but a plain nut holding the rear axle in place? |
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Post by m40man on May 30, 2009 17:09:55 GMT
I can assure you that it is most definitely a reason for failure and as for the fazer's having ordinary nuts, they are in fact crimp nuts which may appear similar to ordinary looking nuts but they are a form of locking device. Oh, right. I doubt I'm the only one not to know that. Is there a way we can tell if our bikes have the correct crimp nut? IE, what visual sign will there be please? (What does the MOT tester check for?) Besides, would you really want to ride on a machine that is capable of speeds over 110mph with nothing but a plain nut holding the rear axle in place? Clearly yes - because I thought I was  . |
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Post by salona on May 30, 2009 17:24:46 GMT
They look more or less like any other plane nut but they are usually flanged and if you were to remove it, the threaded portion appears slightly ovalled. There is also another kind which has slits in the top of the nut. I will try and upload a picture as I think I have one in the shed.  This is one example of a rear spindle locknut. Looks more or less like a nylok but without the nylon. There are numerous other designs in use but they are all acceptable locking devices. You can also get away with using two plain nuts together. |
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Post by wills on May 30, 2009 18:17:14 GMT
FWIW the newly-removed spindle in my D600 is drilled with a castellated nut. Looks to me as if I can easily lose 5mm of thread and still have the nut fully engaging.
Many years ago I rebuilt an old Matchless 650 from the ground up, and took it for its first MoT. The tester was one of the old school, walked round it a few times, made sure the brakes were OK and the electrics worked, and the bearings were all OK, sucking his teeth all the time as he did so.
Eventually he sucked for one last time. "Yes, i can wrote you a ticket on this one. But do me a favour, lad. Put a nut on the front wheel spindle when you get home"
Oops!
He actually had a spare nut at the back of the workshop, and didn't charge me either. Lesson learned, though.
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Post by teejayexc on May 30, 2009 18:26:07 GMT
You can also get away with using two plain nuts together. Don't confuse him  , he has enough trouble keeping one nut tight! ;D |
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Post by CD on Jun 1, 2009 8:38:46 GMT
Point taken about the locking devices, but in the end we only have to prevent the spindle falling out. The side loads are minimal on a bike. Two narrow (lock) nuts locked together should be enough.
From (very) faint memory I think many Brit bikes did it this way.
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Post by HRHpenfold on Jun 1, 2009 11:12:14 GMT
............ and most other bikes? My Fazer 1000 & 600 have ordinary nuts & the VFR has four wheel nuts. No locking devices evident . ................ I've never had an MOT failure for these standards fittings, or had a rear wheel fall off . I can assure you that it is most definitely a reason for failure and as for the fazer's having ordinary nuts, they are in fact crimp nuts which may appear similar to ordinary looking nuts but they are a form of locking device. The reason I am so sure it is an MoT failure is because I have been a qualified MoT Tester for 12 years and have tested hundreds of bikes in that time. Besides, would you really want to ride on a machine that is capable of speeds over 110mph with nothing but a plain nut holding the rear axle in place? You do talk some rubbish, show me in the MOT testers manual, the relevant section which states a locknut must be fitted to the rear spindle, if your going to state opinions as fact, at least be sure that you can back it up!  www.motuk.co.uk/manual/mc_contents.htmMy bikes dont have locknuts either, they are set screws, last one passed a MOT Saturday |
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Post by teejayexc on Jun 1, 2009 11:51:48 GMT
To be fair he did say 'locking device' and from your link it states;
Isn't a set screw a 'locking device'?
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Post by salona on Jun 1, 2009 12:33:48 GMT
I can assure you that it is most definitely a reason for failure and as for the fazer's having ordinary nuts, they are in fact crimp nuts which may appear similar to ordinary looking nuts but they are a form of locking device. The reason I am so sure it is an MoT failure is because I have been a qualified MoT Tester for 12 years and have tested hundreds of bikes in that time. Besides, would you really want to ride on a machine that is capable of speeds over 110mph with nothing but a plain nut holding the rear axle in place? You do talk some rubbish, show me in the MOT testers manual, the relevant section which states a locknut must be fitted to the rear spindle, if your going to state opinions as fact, at least be sure that you can back it up! www.motuk.co.uk/manual/mc_contents.htmMy bikes dont have locknuts either, they are set screws, last one passed a MOT Saturday Em, you just answered your own question there. I was not stating an opinion as fact, I said all along that there had to be a locking device. A locknut is just one example of the many that are acceptable. I am not some armchair mechanic who doesn't know any better. I have been a mechanic/Mot Tester for the last 20 years and I know the testers manuals inside and out. I have also been tested myself at various intervals by VOSA examiners and attended numerous refresher courses and seminars regarding the MoT scheme. I tried to give someone on the forum some genuine, helpful advice that's all. I am not talking rubbish, merely giving wills some professional advice that may same him some grief later on. |
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Use a copper mallet or suitable drift so as not to mushroom the thread.
. 
.
, he has enough trouble keeping one nut tight! 
