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Post by markindevon on May 25, 2015 20:26:34 GMT
Hi again all, Ok so, I've seen it written in places that a leaking oil cooler radiator can be bypassed. Is this correct? If so, how? I've at the moment got a slight leak, which seems to get worse as the bike gets hotter. Would you class it as an urgent job to fix? Or, am I ok as long as I keep an eye on the oil level? Also, is there anyone on here who sell reconditioned ones or does repairs? Many thanks!! Mark
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Post by brianpb on May 26, 2015 6:43:02 GMT
The oil cooler is there for a reason, it is an integral component of the engine cooling system so I am not sure anyone would recommend removing it. If it wasn't necessary Yamaha would not have put it there, it is simple economics, assuming a standard mid-range bike has a price ceiling then any cost saving on parts fitted is profit. If they save £50 per bike and sell 10,000 of them that is half a million on the bottom line! Your leak is worse when the bike is hot because hot oil is less viscous than cold oil. I would recommend you fix the problem because the possibilities of problems from oil contamination are many and varied, oil on brakes, tyres, clothing skin, etc is never a good thing, oily bits also catch the dirt and dust so your bike is always dirty to work on. Repair is next to impossible because of the oil contamination of the parts, so replacement is your only option. I recently bought a new cooler from Raw Power Motorcycle through eBay for my 900, cost £146 inc courier. Add to that about £4 for the correct sealing washers from yamaha which should always be replaced when you disturb them. There was someone on eBay selling the coolers at half that price but it was from China with a long delivery time and I would rather pay more and deal with a UK company but that is my choice. Quality of the part is indistinguishable from the original. Fitting was easy on the 900 with the fairing off, not sure about the 600, Haynes tells you to drain the oil but you don't have to, make sure you use a torque wrench as the correct torque is quite low (32ft/lb on the 900 from memory probably about the same on yours) remember you are tightening a steel banjo bolt into ally. Don't forget to put a big spanner on the cooler in/out connections to prevent that from moving on the cooler or you may end up with another leak. Good luck
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Post by crickleymal on May 26, 2015 7:13:57 GMT
The earlier engines did not have a cooler and ran perfectly OK. Many people on here have done bypasses with no problems although I haven't done any myself.
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Post by teejayexc on May 26, 2015 8:35:09 GMT
If it wasn't necessary Yamaha would not have put it there, it is simple economics, assuming a standard mid-range bike has a price ceiling then any cost saving on parts fitted is profit. If they save £50 per bike and sell 10,000 of them that is half a million on the bottom line! Blocks! What about the AIS system that they fitted to the D 9 then? They'd have saved a fortune by your reasoning by not fitting all the gubbins involved in that, but they had to to satisfy the California emissions laws, and latterly, the same bollocks imposed by the jobsworths in Brussels.
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Post by brianpb on May 26, 2015 14:01:40 GMT
If it wasn't necessary Yamaha would not have put it there, it is simple economics, assuming a standard mid-range bike has a price ceiling then any cost saving on parts fitted is profit. If they save £50 per bike and sell 10,000 of them that is half a million on the bottom line! Blocks! What about the AIS system that they fitted to the D 9 then? They'd have saved a fortune by your reasoning by not fitting all the gubbins involved in that, but they had to to satisfy the California emissions laws, and latterly, the same bollocks imposed by the jobsworths in Brussels. Haven't you just made my point AIS was required by legislators so they had to put it on! If the early ones didn't have a cooler but the later ones did perhaps the early ones ran too hot (in Yamaha's opinion)?? I can't see them putting one on just for fun. it always amazes me how many forums have 'experts' who know better than the people who have designed thousands and built millions of bikes, cars etc.
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Post by teejayexc on May 26, 2015 15:46:17 GMT
Haven't you just made my point AIS was required by legislators so they had to put it on! Ermm, no. Legislation yes, but added to please jobsworths not for the benefits of the end user. it always amazes me how many forums have 'experts' who know better than the people who have designed thousands and built millions of bikes, cars etc. Stick around and be prepared to be enlightened then
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Post by brianpb on May 26, 2015 15:59:28 GMT
Haven't you just made my point AIS was required by legislators so they had to put it on! Ermm, no. Legislation yes, but added to please jobsworths not for the benefits of the end user. it always amazes me how many forums have 'experts' who know better than the people who have designed thousands and built millions of bikes, cars etc. Stick around and be prepared to be enlightened then Legislators are the problem though, idiots making laws on subjects most of them don't understand, didn't we have a transport minister not that long ago that didn't drive?? Perhaps we should petition Brussels to give us laws that require bikes to run on water and only produce beer out of the exhaust. As to my enlightenment, I look forward to it
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Post by m40man on May 26, 2015 17:32:20 GMT
More 'expertise' on this old thread, which gives views for & against: diversionclub.proboards.com/thread/11395/bypassing-oil-cooler-on-97If mine, I'd probably just bypass it, at least in the short term whilst awaiting a fair-priced one to come up for sale somewhere, or whilst fabricating some brackets to take an after-market replacement. (A mechanically sympathetic rider would surely just slow down or rest it awhile if evidence of any overheating arose?) Of those who've removed theirs, none have come back to say they had to overturn that decision because it overheated.
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Post by markindevon on May 26, 2015 18:11:31 GMT
Thanks guys for the advice. I've just had a look at the connection(s) to the oil cooler radiator & I think it's possible that when the bike was "tinkered" with last, the incorrect washer was used to secure the pipe. Luckily, I have some copper washers, so I'll wait until the weekend & have more of a look. It seems the left hand side is leaking rather than the right. Guess we'll see. I'll update at the weekend. Thanks again!!
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Post by markindevon on May 26, 2015 18:16:59 GMT
M40Man = thanks for the link to the other post. Gives me a bit more confidence haha!!
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Post by HRHpenfold on May 26, 2015 18:20:33 GMT
Yamaha added a cooler because some of the earlier bikes overheated when stuck in traffic especially in hot weather, and in the more Southern European countries, it has nothing to do with the jetting, or the requirement to pass EU emissions,
At the time Yamaha fitted AIS systems in order to pass emissions legislation, the bikes cheated by having air added to the exhaust, so removing AIS systems won't make them less polluting, only appear less polluting if it was measured,
It was only later that they developed bikes which run weaker mixtures, but they were Fuel injection engines,
Removing the oil cooler will have an effect, on short journeys the engine will warm up quicker and is less likely to trap water in the oil, and will be more efficient, because there is no thermostat in the oil system, it's also less prone to the clutch bearing issues,
On longer journeys it won't have much effect, one way or the other,
In heavy traffic on a hot day it may overheat, resulting in the engine getting louder and possibly smoking,
Clearly Yamaha have no idea of the conditions it would be used over its life, only issues brought to their attention in warranty claims,
To say that the manufacturer knows best is a rather nieve opinion,
every motorcycle innovation in the modern era has been invented by an individual working in his shed!
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Post by brianpb on May 26, 2015 18:30:56 GMT
The problem with these modifications is that you get one or two people who do them then post saying there is no difference, or the bike runs better. How do they know that the mods are not compromising engine life, reliability or some other aspect?
I still believe that we have to trust the manufacturer with all their experience of designing and building engines and bikes, they put engines on test beds and run them for hundreds or thousands of hours, sometimes to destruction, with instrumentation monitoring many parameters that we cannot.
The old thread mentioned in the previous post suggests that older bikes without coolers ran richer than the newer ones with coolers. They would therefore run cooler. If you follow that train then if you remove the cooler you should richen the mixture, but by how much? It boils down to guesswork.
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Post by brianpb on May 26, 2015 18:47:19 GMT
Clearly Yamaha have no idea of the conditions it would be used over its life, only issues brought to their attention in warranty claims, To say that the manufacturer knows best is a rather nieve opinion, every motorcycle innovation in the modern era has been invented by an individual working in his shed! Brianbp says: WHAT A LOAD OF BO....CKS That's why they test in all sorts of conditions, I am not saying they never make a mistake but they get it right most of the time. And that's one hell of a shed and individual, you are fifty years behind the times my friend, ABS, traction control, automatic gearboxes, VTEC, and many other innovations didn't come out of any shed or from any individual.
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Post by HRHpenfold on May 26, 2015 19:09:41 GMT
The problem with these modifications is that you get one or two people who do them then post saying there is no difference, or the bike runs better. How do they know that the mods are not compromising engine life, reliability or some other aspect? I still believe that we have to trust the manufacturer with all their experience of designing and building engines and bikes, they put engines on test beds and run them for hundreds or thousands of hours, sometimes to destruction, with instrumentation monitoring many parameters that we cannot. The old thread mentioned in the previous post suggests that older bikes without coolers ran richer than the newer ones with coolers. They would therefore run cooler. If you follow that train then if you remove the cooler you should richen the mixture, but by how much? It boils down to guesswork. You seem to have much more faith in manufacturers than I do, If you were right, then how come Honda had all those cam chain problems in the 80's, How come BMW have had all those fuel pump issues and gearbox issues, in their upto 2010 bikes and clutch issues in their W/c Gs bikes in 2014, What about the valves on 2005 FJR1300's Or the fuelling issues on most yamaha's since 2006 The suggestion was made by someone thinking that the Haynes manual suggested it being richer on earlier models, Jetting carbs is not guesswork, the oil cooler only cools the oil, it doesn't cool the barrels or head, or the piston, which is what is effected by the mixture, it just won't make any difference to the running of the engine, the cooler will only help the oil in extreme circumstances, it won't cool the engine due to a weaker mixture!
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Post by teejayexc on May 26, 2015 19:35:37 GMT
See, I told you to stick around
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Post by HRHpenfold on May 26, 2015 19:51:46 GMT
Clearly Yamaha have no idea of the conditions it would be used over its life, only issues brought to their attention in warranty claims, To say that the manufacturer knows best is a rather nieve opinion, every motorcycle innovation in the modern era has been invented by an individual working in his shed! Brianbp says: WHAT A LOAD OF BO....CKS That's why they test in all sorts of conditions, I am not saying they never make a mistake but they get it right most of the time. And that's one hell of a shed and individual, you are fifty years behind the times my friend, ABS, traction control, automatic gearboxes, VTEC, and many other innovations didn't come out of any shed or from any individual. Abs for motorcycles was developed for BMW by a professor at Manchester university, he got a new BMW every year, free from BMW, originally Abs was designed again by one person in the 1920's for aircraft, Automatics, I have an automatic bike built in 1980, Though I know one was designed in someone's shed and evaluated by MV Augusta the mid 50's, it was 175cc, though there were probably earlier Matchless had a mono shock rear suspension in the 1930's any bike in the 30's were shed built and designed, Upside down forks are ancient, The first disc brake on a motorcycle was fitted well over a 100 years ago Remind me what the big manufacturers have designed that never appeared before on a motorcycle?
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Post by pol on May 27, 2015 19:30:20 GMT
It seems the left hand side is leaking rather than the right. Mine is leaking on the left too, is it always that side that goes?
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Post by crickleymal on May 28, 2015 7:24:09 GMT
Dunno but it was the same side on my ZZR.
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Post by brianpb on May 29, 2015 8:37:33 GMT
The problem with these modifications is that you get one or two people who do them then post saying there is no difference, or the bike runs better. How do they know that the mods are not compromising engine life, reliability or some other aspect? I still believe that we have to trust the manufacturer with all their experience of designing and building engines and bikes, they put engines on test beds and run them for hundreds or thousands of hours, sometimes to destruction, with instrumentation monitoring many parameters that we cannot. The old thread mentioned in the previous post suggests that older bikes without coolers ran richer than the newer ones with coolers. They would therefore run cooler. If you follow that train then if you remove the cooler you should richen the mixture, but by how much? It boils down to guesswork. You seem to have much more faith in manufacturers than I do, If you were right, then how come Honda had all those cam chain problems in the 80's, How come BMW have had all those fuel pump issues and gearbox issues, in their upto 2010 bikes and clutch issues in their W/c Gs bikes in 2014, What about the valves on 2005 FJR1300's Or the fuelling issues on most yamaha's since 2006 The suggestion was made by someone thinking that the Haynes manual suggested it being richer on earlier models, Jetting carbs is not guesswork, the oil cooler only cools the oil, it doesn't cool the barrels or head, or the piston, which is what is effected by the mixture, it just won't make any difference to the running of the engine, the cooler will only help the oil in extreme circumstances, it won't cool the engine due to a weaker mixture!
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gazza
Newbie
Completely lost and forgot the Sat Nav !!
Posts: 7
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Post by gazza on Jun 2, 2015 4:00:41 GMT
Hi all, new to the forum but not to the Divvy, not sure if you still have this problem Mark but here is what I did about 2 years ago on my 1999 600s, I cut the 2 metal pipes coming out of the oil connection block (the one behind the oil filter) using a proper pipe cuter to eliminate any swarf bits leaving about 4 inch on each side which I then cleaned up using some fine wet and dry, I then bought half a metre of 10mm (may have been 8mm it was a while ago) copper pipe and 2x straight compression fittings (would have used elbows but they were more expensive) and simply linked one side to the other, cost me about £3, I've prob done in the region of 8000 miles since doing the 'fix' I use the bike for work pretty much every day in all weathers and never had a problem with it leaking (or any other related problems), in fact I've never had any problems with the bike save oil fork seals and chain / sprockets brake pads etc.. Way I figured it removing a leaky and very restrictive oil cooler / radiator (in my case) must actually improve oil flow because surely its now a less restrictive oil path ??
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bendy
CBT failure
Posts: 18
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Post by bendy on Jun 3, 2015 12:08:40 GMT
Hi re u oil cooler. I had the same problem with mine. I bought a smaller oil cooler on ebay new for £40 . Remove the old cooler and cut the inlet and outlet pipes to the cooler about 4inch from the bottom of the Adapter plate. Bought a length of oil hose for £6.00 and connected it to the new cooler and outlet and inlet pipes with jublie clips. Painted them black . I have never had a problem with oil leaks yet . It has been on the bike now for 6 months and is doing a great job. I will try and post some pictures of it . Will check ebay and see if i can get u the address of the guy who sold me the cooler. Its beats having to fork out for a new cooler from Yamaha. If u go onto ebay look up Universal oil cooler 6 rows Radiator. It is sold by Quad-Bike-Ped-shed Tried to upload some photos of it on my bike but it wont let me. Cheers Mel.
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Post by markindevon on Jun 3, 2015 20:53:14 GMT
Cheers Gazza!!! That will be the way I go unless I do manage to find a replacement cooler of some sort! Bendy159, I've replied to your pm! Thanks mate
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gazza
Newbie
Completely lost and forgot the Sat Nav !!
Posts: 7
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Post by gazza on Jun 4, 2015 19:17:04 GMT
No Problem, glad to help
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Post by CD on Jun 9, 2015 10:14:55 GMT
My 600 overheated on a hot day in traffic. I was on A38 roadworks near B'ham with narrow lanes so could not filter. I had to get into the closed lane via the cones. The bike sat there smoking so at risk of getting ticketed I rode up the coned off lane. Better to get some cooling air over it that let it fester. New engine costs more than a ticket. The 600's puny little oil cooler trapped under the petrol tank did all of nothing My 900 oil cooler cracked when I did the valve shims. They all do that sir. I used the bike with a bypass pipe but it was more prone to rattle when hot. Maybe that was the now wider valve clearances. I fitted a slimline oil cooler to the frame down tubes. It made me feel better but in British climate who knows if the bike really needs the oil cooler. The D900 AIS was removed and made all of no difference to the performance. The OEM exhausts rusted out and replaced with Beowulf cans. Even with baffles (very loud without) they made a big difference to performance. The 900 has no knock sensor so spark timing is set for 95RON petrol. Fitting a spark advancer will allow the benefits of higher octane petrol - improve mpg, more power and lower exhaust valve temperatures. But it will pink on cheap fuel so not good for tours where fuel quality is variable. The 900 brakes were wooden and hard to ride smoothly. Blue spots from an R6 transformed the brakes. So Yamaha oil coolers crack when you service the bike and do very little cooling at low speed. However they might help when thrashing the bike at high speed. 900 brakes are average at best. Yamahas own blue spots drop straight on with a vast improvement The AIS is purely to pass emission tests where a probe is put up the exhaust. Total emissions are unchanged. The exhaust is baffled down to pass the mid revs noise test. A more free flowing system has minimal effect on noise in every day use but big benefits on performance. This is for the D900. In short there are many areas where bikes can be improved. Either because of factory cost saving or because the factory has to pass specific tests.
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Post by pol on Jun 13, 2015 17:58:18 GMT
i've got the same problem had a leak on mine, on the left where the outlet pipe connects to the radiator, right where the washer is. i bought the correct washer from AJ Sutton & & tried fitting it today, but it's not curing it. I'm tightening it all up using the correct torque (34Nm according to haynes), so am wondering is there a step i'm missing? should i be applying some type of sealing gunk to this?
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Post by teejayexc on Jun 13, 2015 18:08:12 GMT
It' usually not the seal that's the problem...a hairline crack in the *nut* fastening, (under the copper washer in your pic).
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Post by pol on Jun 13, 2015 18:20:56 GMT
i thought it was that at first, but the leak actually starts at the top of the *nut* fastening & runs down it... basically from where the washer is in the photo, so i'm not entirely sure. & if it's definitely not a seal problem, then i'm properly stumped!
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Post by teejayexc on Jun 13, 2015 18:53:24 GMT
i thought it was that at first, but the leak actually starts at the top of the *nut* fastening & runs down it... basically from where the washer is in the photo, so i'm not entirely sure. & if it's definitely not a seal problem, then i'm properly stumped! I'll lay money* it's an hairline crack, probably running through the thread side, worth trying some sort of thread seal/ptfe tape,(but not too much!), before investigating any further * for those that know me, it won't be a lot
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Post by pol on Jun 13, 2015 19:32:02 GMT
sounds like its worth a go cheers
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Post by CD on Jun 15, 2015 7:13:35 GMT
I put Dowty washers on mine but as TJ says the real cause was a crack in the oil cooler hex boss. I had been ultra careful to back-hold the boss while turning the banjo nut, but the crack appeared anyway. The 600 cooler is weedy to say the least and so shrouded in plastic it's unlikely to have much cooling effect. Lots of info here. diversionclub.proboards.com/thread/667/oil-cooler-banjos-1998-xj600sI used to believe the cooler served a purpose but best option is to lose it entirely. Remove oil cooler pipes mounting and to fit a shorter oil filter bolt.
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