HELP! Cold weather/battery problem?

[bulldog2k]

Hi all,

Wonder if you can help.

I haven't had my Diversion for long, but took it out this morning in weather that was pretty cold; -2 degrees C.

It sounded pretty lump from the off, and before long the oil light came on. I checked it and it seemed ok. After about 7 miles, the bike became pretty lumpy, and I thought it was getting low on fuel, so turned the fuel tap round. That made no difference.

After about another mile, the bike effectively stalled, and the rear wheel locked. I kept it upright, and rolled to the side of the road. There was no power at all - no light on the dash at all.

I pushed it to a nearby car park and after 5 min I got enough juice to light the oil light, but no more - no clicks from it trying to turn over, nothing.

A passerby then told me he thought it was the battery. I didn't know but thought it was more likely to be something to do with the charging? But I know very little about it.

I took the battery to a bike shop, and they put it on the load tester and said the battery was ok. They wondered if it was a fuse.

Can anyone suggest what I should try?

Cheers all

[bear]

Other people will post with more technical expertise, but my year with my 600 makes me think of a couple of things - apologies if they sound patronisingly obvious but I always found it best to positively rule out the easily sorted stuff first.

1) Is it likely the bike is low on fuel? When did you last fill it up? If it's unexpected - i.e. if you filled the tank less than 100 miles ago - have you noticed any fuel leaks or notices a strong smell of fuel?

2) When was the last time you used the bike prior to this morning? When was the last time it had a ride of over 20 miles?

3) When the bike was running "lumpy", did it hesitate to pull away when you opened the throttle? Did it feel like it was going to stall if you pulled up to a junction? (potentially carb icing, not uncommon given the weather)

4) How old are the spark plugs? How old is the bike generally (in age and mileage)? You say you've not had the bike long - are you reasonably confident the bike's been looked after?

If the battery's been confirmed as okay, it could also be the regualtor/rectifier.

[bulldog2k]

No, I didn't think that was patronising at all, and I appreciate your input very much.

Ok - Having rung someone, they suggested the engine had seized due to lack of oil. They also suggested putting it in top gear and trying to push it to see if it would turn the engine over.

I did, and it did, so I chucked a litre of oil in it, and it started and ran, so I chucked another litre of oil in it (therefore making me think it was pretty much totally out), and it has been ok. Initially, one of the exhausts was chucking out a lot of blue smoke whereas the other one was running clean, but by the time I got back, it seems to be ok.

Having said that, I don't know why the original issue caused the power to go? When the engine seized (therefore locking the back wheel) would that drain the battery from trying to turn over a stuck engine?

Also - more disturbing - I can't find a way to measure how much oil is in there in order to make sure I stay on top of how much oil it's using to avoid a repetition of it!

There's no dip stick underneath the filler cap, and there's an observation window, but it's very clouded up and hard to see through. Am I being stupid? Have I missed something really obvious?

I've had the bike a week, it absolutely has NOT been looked after (though has run beautifully smoothly until today!), and has been off the road for a while...

Anything else I should be checking/thinking of..?

Cheers all

[bear]

...and before long the oil light came on. I checked it and it seemed ok.

Ah, I assumed that meant you'd checked the oil level, which is why I didn't mention it.

Putting two litres of oil in a 600 engine would be close to filling it from completely and utterly drained, so the initial blue smoke may be due to a slight overfill. If it's dissipated I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Even if the oil obs window is clouded up you should be able to see a level. If not, start the engine and warm it before letting it settle - you should see the oil seep back down into the sump. It's fresh oil so should be prety easy to see. A torch or good daylight (ha!) would help.

Regardless, if it's drinking oil at any significant rate you'll notice it either through pooling of oil under the bike when stood, or significant smoke on running. Stick newspaper under the engine overnight for an easy way to detect oil. Don't use the wife's towels - the repercussions are painful.

If it is the oil (and it's looking likely) that would explain the seizure (and well done on staying upright, btw).

I'm not sure on the logistics of whether a seizure would prevent the starter motor from turning over the engine, but I wouldn't be surprised. See if you get any repetition of the problem now that the bike's running. If not, be happy.

Welcome to the site, btw.... where are you based?

[johnthebowman]

Hi bulldog2k and welcome to the site

To check the oil level warm up the engine, put the bike on the main stand on level ground and after a few minutes you should see the oil level.
Considering the problems you have had. I would give it an oil and filter change before you run her again.

Do you live anywhere near Fareham on the south coast? I would be glad to come and have a look for you.

[biblebasher]

as usual, no sarcastic comments. as has been said many times before, there are so many helpful people on this site who dont belittle those who are new to the divvy, or even new to biking. well done guys

[johnthebowman]

I just remembered that you will need to fire her up to warm and therefore thin the oil to get it all out. Especially in this very cold weather.

I hate to be the bringer of bad news but if your engine has partly seized then your engine problems could be terminal.

Please forgive me Bulldog2k, if I'm telling you things you already know.

My thoughts are to use cheap Tescos car oil 10/40 semisynthetic at about £9 for two litres. You will need 2 bottles of this. I'm not sure exactly how much oil the 600 takes. This will be in the manual or someone with a 600 will tell you here. I have the 900.
I would give her that oil and filter change asp. Ride her for about 50 miles and then give her another oil and filter change. This time you could use better quality oil but the same cheep stuff will do.
Doing this will clean out any bits of metal that got in the oil when you had the seizure. If these bits of metal stay in the oil in the engine you will cause serious engine damage.

The good news Bulldog2k, is that you have come to the right place. There are many here who like myself will be willing to help all they can

[m40man]

Dec 19, 2009 17:47:02 GMT johnthebowman said:

I just remembered that you will need to fire her up to warm and therefore thin the oil to get it all out.

Normally I'd agree, John. But in the circumstances (of a probable partial seizure) I would do a change even if it had to be cold, just to see the oil that's in there mostly drained, & to get some clean oil in.

Partial seizure needn't be the end of the motor. It all depends what damage got done. Might have got away with a bit of excess wear. Though the rear locking up doesn't sound good .

[teejayexc]

Dec 19, 2009 16:57:15 GMT biblebasher said:

as usual, no sarcastic comments. as has been said many times before, there are so many helpful people on this site who dont belittle those who are new to the divvy, or even new to biking. well done guys

That's cos I've only just read this

Only kidding, Bulldog, as Bear says A torch shining into the oil glass window is the best thing to use but have to admit, at this time of year it can be a 'bugger to see through the gunk in there . Level, if you can see it should be almost to the top of the sight glass with bike stood upright (on its centre stand if fitted).

You were lucky it didn't seize permanently by the sound of things, but if she's started up again you should be ok.

[General Gman]

I have to say, I'm surprised that it ran lumpy before seizing (if indeed it did seize)
The most likely damage from a seizure would be to the top end, so if it's definitely worth checking the cam journals out when you get a chance.The fact that it's started up again fairly readily is a good sign, especially if there are no noises that weren't there before.
Before buying Tesco oil, go to Hein Gericke if you have one near you - their own brand semi-synthetic is only £13.99 for 4 litres, and is good gear.I've ued it for the last three years in a 600 Divvy (now languishing in the garage). a FZR1000 EXUP, a ZX-6R and ZX-9R.
When the engine is running, do listen out for any knocks from the bottom end, too.Oil starvation can murder big ends....

[johnthebowman]

Dec 19, 2009 18:15:37 GMT m40man said:

Dec 19, 2009 17:47:02 GMT johnthebowman said:

I just remembered that you will need to fire her up to warm and therefore thin the oil to get it all out.

Normally I'd agree, John. But in the circumstances (of a probable partial seizure) I would do a change even if it had to be cold, just to see the oil that's in there mostly drained, & to get some clean oil in.

Partial seizure needn't be the end of the motor. It all depends what damage got done. Might have got away with a bit of excess wear. Though the rear locking up doesn't sound good .

I agree Martin. On the first oil change Bulldog2k, drain the old oil out with the engine cold.

[bulldog2k]

Can I thank everyone for their input here. Really really useful and welcoming, despite my advanced display of muppetry.

Further to previous posts;

When I'd put the two litres of oil in, I rode it back about 9 miles on motorway and dual carriageway, and it essentially seemed fine. I rode it to get petrol this morning - urban riding of about 6 miles, and again it was fine (even if I didn't enjoy the snow and ice that much!)

I take the point about the necessity of draining the oil that I've put in (didn't have any choice at the time but to buy decent stuff from Halfords, which is never cheap) in order to clear any metal particles, but don't have the ability to that where I am right now - visiting my folks in Nottingham. I really need to get the bike back home - Bath - tomorrow, which will be a ride of about 150 miles. My plan is to frequently stop at every services on the way and keep an eye on it, unless anyone thinks this is a profoundly stupid idea.

Then, when I'm home, I'll drain the current oil and replace it and the filter. One quick question - will I need a replacement drain plug or can I re-use the old one. Thanks for the heads-up on the HG oil - I have a HG store near me in Bristol, so can take care of that.

Have to say, I still can't see anything through the inspection window. What I'm wondering is whether this is due to me over-filling it such that it's slightly above the level of the inspection window. Hmm. Hadn't thought of this til now, but I suppose if I put it on the side stand, it would drop the level such that I could tell whether this was true or not (though that, I know, would not be an accurate reading).

One last question, if I may..? Though everyone agrees on the fact the bike needs to be level, some places seem to say it's ok to be on the centre stand, and some say it's not. Any thoughts..?

Cheers all. School of hard knocks, and all that...

[bear]

It's recommended to change the washer on the sump plug, but I didn't do this last change and had no problems with leakage. Even if changing the washer, you won't need to change the plug itself.

Good idea about the side stand to see if the obs window is usable.. I had mine on the centre stand for level checking and I can't imagine that it would be intended to check the level off the centre stand. Certainly had no symptoms of overfilling, but then again I did measure the amount I was putting in quite accurately as a check.

Another thumbs up for Hein Gericke oil - it's good stuff and inexpensive. For a simple change you'll need 2200ml; if you're changing the filter at the same time it's 2400ml. If you measure accurately, and if you leave the engine to drain completely, then you should be able to change the oil "blind" without the use of the obs window.

[teejayexc]

The fact that you have rode it so far without any more mishaps/strange noises would tend to make me think you should be ok to get home, as you say checking things periodically on the way.

You can re-use the old drain plug, might be worth investing in a copper washer just in case, though I've always re-used that too.

Oil level is best checked on the centre stand, if you think you may have overfilled putting it on the sidestand to see if you can see the top of the oil would be a good idea though.

Best of luck on your ride home, 150 miles home in this weather is no mean feat!

regards, Trev

[johnthebowman]

Hi Bulldog2k,

Would it be possible to persuade your folks in Nottingham to let you do an oil change before your ride back to Bath?

If they don't and your bike seizes on the motorway. . . . with a vehicle following too close behind like they often do. . . .They may never get a visit from you again!
The above argument might convince them but then there is potential lack of tools etc

However its good news she seems to be running OK.

Try putting your bike on the sidestand. Then go to the side of the bike that the oil window is on and tilt the bike away from you and towards you until you see the oil level move up and down.

Its very very unlikely that you will need a new drain plug. I have done about twenty oil changes on my D9 and only changed the copper washer once and had no oil leeks. The only problem with the drain plug is if you overtighten it the thread it goes into in the sump could be stripped.

You will need a drip tray. A socket to undo the drain plug and possibly the special tool to remove the filter if it is on rather more tightly than it should be.
I have all these tools and Bath is near enough for me to ride up to you and give you a hand if you would like?
My divvy is currently only on the road thanks to the help of other members on this site. I would be merely passing on their kindness to someone else

Best of luck with the ride home tomorrow. Forecast is a bit less cold than today but it could be wet.

Either way, please post here to let us all know you got safely home to Bath

[bulldog2k]

Hi all,

After what I would absolutely call one of the three toughest journeys I've ever had to make, and after having stopped at every services to check the oil level (owing as much to paranoia as the need to defrost my fingers), and after the heart-stopping experience of counting my chickens before they'd hatched on getting to Bristol and assuming I was nearly home before doing a comedy double-take and realised it was HEAVILY snow-laden and I would be riding through more severe weather for the last 15 miles than I ever had done before, I made it back...

johnthebowman, that's a wonderfully kind offer. I couldn't dream of asking you to tootle up to Bath to help me with an oil change, but may well store your extraordinary offer for when I really need it!

For now, I live to fight another day, and seem to have got away with both a near off and a seized engine. The bike was impeccably behaved all the way back. Live and learn, eh?

Thanks all, for your help and support. Oil change is 1st job for tomorrow...

[m40man]

Excellent - glad to hear you're home safe . Pretty treacherous weather thereabouts today .

[johnthebowman]

Glad you are home safe Bulldog2k and what a journey you had!

Hardcore.

Its nice of you to say so, but its not really a "wonderfully kind offer" for me to ride to Bristol and help you with an oil change.

I got friends in Bath and Bristol and ride there a lot. I'm not working and have the time. Plus I enjoy meeting people

It could possibly count as a "kind offer" as far the Y.D.C. club are concerned but to be "wonderfully kind offer" I would have to do something like the following. . . .

At least three trips to Bristol on my only day off work and totally at my own expense.
Rebuild your engine completely and once again just to make sure its perfect.
Get all the parts needed from other members of the Y.D.C. club for free and buy some new parts myself.
Buy you a brand new tyre and fit it.
Refuse to accept any payment from you and when the job is done, Then, drive you to the pub and buy you a pint!

Now that would be a Y.D.C. "wonderfully kind offer/deed".

Recently a similar "wonderfully kind deed" was done to me by a certain member here. Its the only reason my Divvy is on the road now.

Let us know how you get on with the oil change. You might find some "furing" (little bits of metal sticking to the magnetic drain plug when you take it out) Clean them all off before you put the drain plug back.

[teejayexc]

Dec 21, 2009 17:25:10 GMT johnthebowman said:

Then, drive you to the pub and buy you a pint!

Almost had me believing you there John, but you blew it with that statement ;D

[CD]

The oil window should be clean and silver inside. If its dirty I think it would be wise to take off the clutch cover and clean the sight glass. A big hassle but better than running out of oil.

I'll spare you (most of) my rant about bikes not having proper dip-sticks. Cars do but no bike does (and the Hondas with dip sticks on one side don't count).

Well done on that icey ride. BTW sometimes the slush is safer than packed ice.

[m40man]

Dec 24, 2009 17:25:12 GMT CD said:

.... the Hondas with dip sticks on one side don't count...

It's nearly Panto' season just I'll just say "Oh yes they do !"

[bobh]

Oh no they don't!

But at least they're better than oil-in-frame dry sumpers where you have to run the engine for several minutes before you can even see if there's any oil in there at all.

[CD]

Unless the bike has a centre stand that's not bent and is parked on a level floor - any dip stick on the side is likely to read wrong. Same with sight glasses. The latter get dirty so are even more hopeless.

Car engines have a flexible dip stick that runs down to the middle of the sump. Within sensible limits, the car can be parked on a tilt or a slope and the oil level wont change. What goes up on one side is cancelled by what goes down on the other. Within limits of course.

There is no reason whatever why bikes could not have the same setup. Except its a bike and bikes dont do that.

There is way too much bike engineering that sticks slavishly to tradition.