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Post by metalforever on Apr 12, 2009 14:39:22 GMT
Right i have my haynes next to me but it seems a little vague.
My valves are rattly (as with many divvys) but having done 24000 miles i think my valves could atleats use checking (Unsure of when they were last done).
I have a few issues with doing my valves though.
1) The manual says use a feeler guage to measure the resistance when slid out from between rocker and valve shim (I understand this part and i should feel a bit of a dragging effect if its correct).
However if i dont feel this dragging effect (the shims being too losse, causing the rattle) am i measuring the feeler guage width used to cause the correct amount of drag and then adding its thickness to that of the valve already in place?
E.g Valve shim number is = 220 (2.20mm thick) + feeler guage of 0.2mm = total of 2.4mm between valve and rocker.
This would mean i'd need a number 240 shim, yes?
2) Are shims a universal fitment? and if so are the numbers also universal (Will a honda 240 be the same as a yamaha?) yamaha ones from wemoto are very expensive! Ebay has bags of them for much less.
3) do i need any special tools? i have the neccesary tools to access the shims such as sockets, allen keys etc but i dont have anything such as a 'valve adjusting tool'.
Cheers!
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Post by metalforever on Apr 12, 2009 17:21:36 GMT
Hey guys, for anyone who may be able to help ive sat for the pasdt two hours with the bike on the mainstand and a stupid feeler guage to try and calculate the clearances.
I've come back with the following, measurements are from left to right (cylinder 1 to 4)
Exhaust clearances 0.22mm, 0.22mm, 0.15mm, 0.15mm
Inlet clearances 0.1mm, 0.1mm, <0.04mm, 0.1mm
My feeler guages dont go any finer than 0.04.
Anyway what would you say about these figures? appart from cylinder 3 which shows alot of variation over both valves they all seem relatively constant to me.
Sorry i have no idea what size shims are currently in place.
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Post by teejayexc on Apr 12, 2009 17:36:35 GMT
Right i have my haynes next to me but it seems a little vague. My valves are rattly (as with many divvys) but having done 24000 miles i think my valves could atleats use checking (Unsure of when they were last done). I have a few issues with doing my valves though. 1) The manual says use a feeler guage to measure the resistance when slid out from between rocker and valve shim (I understand this part and i should feel a bit of a dragging effect if its correct). However if i dont feel this dragging effect (the shims being too losse, causing the rattle) am i measuring the feeler guage width used to cause the correct amount of drag and then adding its thickness to that of the valve already in place? E.g Valve shim number is = 220 (2.20mm thick) + feeler guage of 0.2mm = total of 2.4mm between valve and rocker. This would mean i'd need a number 240 shim, yes? 2) Are shims a universal fitment? and if so are the numbers also universal (Will a honda 240 be the same as a yamaha?) yamaha ones from wemoto are very expensive! Ebay has bags of them for much less. 3) do i need any special tools? i have the neccesary tools to access the shims such as sockets, allen keys etc but i dont have anything such as a 'valve adjusting tool'. Cheers! 1) Not quite, you have to measure the gap you have, and check it against the recommended clearance. Ie, if you have a gap of 0.20mm on the intake valve and it should be 0.11 - 0.15mm you have to add 0.07 mm to the thickness of the shim thats in there to bring it within spec, if your existing shim number was 200 you would need to change it to one of 207 (or the nearest you can get) 2) No there not a universal fitment (that would be too easy, and less productive for the parts machine  ), easiest, (and mostly cheapest),way if you have a local Yam dealer, is to exchange shims ie, you give them the one's you don't need and he gives you the correct ones for your measurements, when I did mine they charged me a couple of quid for each exchange one. Make sure you write down where all your shims and the adjustment needed to correct them came from. A good tip is to put each in their own envelope with the size marked on it and the size of new one needed (stops you mixing 'em up).  Ideally you need a valve adjusting tool to push them down to get the old shims out and the new ones in. HTH Trev |
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Post by teejayexc on Apr 12, 2009 17:51:35 GMT
For the D6, haynes says; Intake valve clearance 0.11 - 0.15mm Ex valve clearance 0.21 to 0.25mm So on your measurements; Ex valves 3 & 4 are too tight by 0.08mm In valves 3 is too tight by 0.09mm too tight is worse than them having a bit of slack, that's when you get valve seats burning  You need to get the old shims out to add or subtract your measurements to them, subtract in your case because it looks like you need thinner shims. |
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Post by metalforever on Apr 12, 2009 18:16:55 GMT
thanks teejay.
I didnt spend too long messing around trying to measure them to be honest so they could be wrong however i'm going to measure them again to be certain.
Surely though if my valves were too tight in 3 cylinders, and within spec for the rest they wouldnt rattle?
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Post by teejayexc on Apr 12, 2009 18:22:13 GMT
thanks teejay. I didnt spend too long messing around trying to measure them to be honest so they could be wrong however i'm going to measure them again to be certain. Surely though if my valves were too tight in 3 cylinders, and within spec for the rest they wouldnt rattle? If you're going to change the shims you must take your time and measure the gaps correctly, otherwise it's a pointless exercise May not be the valves that are rattling, ( I would doubt it if they're tight), could be the camchain or the infamous clutch rattle  I've pm'd my number if you want to give me a call. (I'm getting confused with typing :  |
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Post by bobh on Apr 12, 2009 19:25:36 GMT
Just one valve (usually an exhaust one) at the top end of the recommended clearance can cause a rattle, even if the others are tight or in spec.
Looking at your measurements they look suspiciously consistent - I'd expect to see a bit more in the way of minor variation (e.g. exhausts 0.18, 0.24, 0.16, 0.20, that sort of thing). Are you sure the valve lobe is pointing directly away from the valve in every case when you take the measurement? And can you feel a slight but definite metallic drag (not just the viscous drag of the residual oil) as you pull the feeler gauge stack out of the gap? As a check, if you find the thinnest stack that WON'T go into the gap, then subtract 0.02 it should match your measured clearance to within 0.01. Obviously that doesn't really help with No3 inlet (assuming your measurement is correct), but if you change the shim for one which is 0.10 mm thinner it should end up in spec.
As TJ says, the ones to do urgently are the tight ones, before the seats start to burn.
Changing the shims is a pretty fiddly job. As well as the spring compresioni tool, make sure that you have plenty of room round the bike to allow you to work, an assortment of tweezers, thin-nosed pliers and little screwdrivers to help you manoeuvre the shims (if you decide to use a magnet it needs to be a really strong one), and, most important, plenty of clean rag or paper wipes, of the sort that won't shed any fibres, to stuff down the camchain tunnel to catch a dropped shim (and make sure you take it all out each time before turning the engine to do the next valve). An extra pair of hands can be useful, but not essential if you take it steady and have infinite patience.
Good luck - Bob
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Post by metalforever on Apr 12, 2009 19:59:06 GMT
Just checked my list of things that had been done to the bike. it states "Valves need doing" There isnt however any inidcation the valves were done. I've got a few parcels coming tuesday hopefully, should contain my filters, oil, spark plug socket etc While the bieks being worked on i'll get the cover off again and re-measure the gaps and i'll let you all know what the new measurements are too. I hope i've measured them wrong, i dont want to be replacing valves! To be fair, i dont want to replace shims either! |
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Post by metalforever on Apr 12, 2009 20:00:05 GMT
Oh and it was certainly a metal against metal resistance, it was quite a firm drag, i can compare it do pulling a piece of paper from under a cup of coffee  |
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Post by General Gman on Apr 13, 2009 11:21:17 GMT
I need to do the shims on my ZX9-R - it takes about 3 hrs just to get to the point where you can remove the cam cover ! then if any valves are out, the cams have to come out to change the shims.
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Post by metalforever on Apr 18, 2009 16:16:50 GMT
Teejay, i know you provided your number and offered me help which im grateful for but i managed to figure it out  I went and measured my clearances twice more to get accurate results this time. On the exhaust i got (from left to right (1-4)): 0.20mm, 0.22mm, 0.25mm, 0.20mm On the intake i got: 0.12mm, 0.10mm, <0.04mm, 0.10mm. So as i ddint want to buy the valve tool form yamaha i took the cams off so access the shims, i understand i'll now have to reset the timing but thats fine by me! So on the exhaust i had shims of: 265, 268, 265, 260 Intake: 270, 270, 282, 272. After reading the graph in the haynes for valve adjustment i have come to the following conclusion. All 4 exhaust valves are fine, number 3 however will be increased from 265 to the next higher figure (268?) to remove the rattle (as its at the maximum of the acceptable clearance its likely its causing the rattle) however this will keep it in spec if my workings are correct. On the inlets, only number 1 was in spec. numbers 2, 3 and 4 where all out, requiring a 265, a 270 and another 265 to bring them into spec. luckily for me as number 2 inlet measures 270 and needs changing i can use this shim in number 3. This means all i need is 1 x 265 shims for inlet 4 and 1 x 268 for exhaust number 3. I figure this because exhaust 3 is being replaced so the 265 can be swapped to inlet 2 and inlet 2's 270 can be swapped to inlet 3. Sorted! |
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Post by metalforever on Apr 18, 2009 16:41:36 GMT
P.s Does anyone know where i can buy shims cheaply? Wemotot seem to be the only place actually doing them full stop and at £6.00 a shot (And lacking one of the sizes im after(268)) i dont really want to use them.
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Post by CD on Apr 20, 2009 10:20:32 GMT
As the valve seats wear the clearances close up, so its interesting the exhausts (being the most stressed) have wider clerance than the inlets.
It would be best to live with the rattle because the minimum clearance measurement is what Mr Yamaha thinks the engine needs for the valves to be safe. They will have allowed for differential expansion in the valve stems and cyl head, inertia, bounce, etc. Going to a tighter clearance risks the valves not closing properly. A burnt valve can sometimes wreck the cylinder head not just a the valve top/seat.
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Post by metalforever on Apr 20, 2009 15:03:40 GMT
thanks dave!
Im just trying to source a 270 shim now and ill put it all back together. Saying that, my brake parts dont arrive until tomorrow night when i have a driving lesson and work so assembly wont start until atleast wednesday now. Should be running like a good'un though!
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), easiest, (and mostly cheapest),way if you have a local Yam dealer, is to exchange shims ie, you give them the one's you don't need and he gives you the correct ones for your measurements, when I did mine they charged me a couple of quid for each exchange one.
