Oil Cooler banjos - 1998 XJ600S

[paulcook]

Hi all,
Does anyone have any miracle ways of getting the banjo connections to the oil cooler to seal properly?
The one on the nearside leaks badly. I've tried new copper washers, fibre washers and dowty washers with neoprene inserts. Nothing seems to work.

I think the problem is that with the bolt out the banjo doesn't sit squarely on the oil cooler seating. The pipes seem to be too strong to allow it to settle into position when the bolt is tightened. I assume that somewhere along the line the pipe has got slightly bent.

If it can't be made to seal I've heard that some people have just removed the oil cooler completely. Is this a workable proposition?
I assume you just remove the adaptor block behind the oil filter. Does the filter then just screw up against the crankcase or is there a different adaptor that needs to be obtained?

Hope someone can help as I'm at the end of my tether with it and I need the transport.

Cheers all

Cookie

[k9dbm]

Hi
Would it not be possible to loosen oil cooler first, then fit pipes and banjos, then replace oil cooler?. this way any non squareness of the banjo sitting properly will be lessened, hopefully when the cooler is refitted this will automatically bend the pipes to where they need to be

[paulcook]

Thanks for the suggestion - unfortunately I tried that. I fixed the pipes on with the oil cooler bolts removed then bolted it in. The oil still leaked.
Those pipes are just so rigid!

Cookie

[pebbles]

the oil cooler is there for a reason i would not
recomend that u remove it perhaps if one
of us is local to u we could help u sort it out

[Deleted]

Are you absolutely sure it isn't a cracked boss causing the leak?
I went through the same rigmarole with the 900, and eventually found a hairline crack on the hex boss. Not uncommon I have since learned

[werner1]

Yep , probably a cracked cooler . Been there , had that



If this isn't the case , you can heat the cupper washer before using them

[paulcook]

Gordy/Werner1...

Thanks for the suggestion. I was sure until I went outside and took the cooler off again for a proper gander about half hour ago.
Sure enough, a hairline crack in the boss - right where the oil was appearing. Good call chaps...

So what now?

I can't stump up for a new one and the pipework that goes to it from the adaptor behind the filter looks to be well past it's best anyway so it probably wouldn't be worth it.
Is the cooler definately necessary in our climate? I'd assumed that it was put on for warmer climes as the earlier models didn't have one, or was there an overheating problem early on?

Any suggestions gratefully received.

Thanks
Cookie

[CD]

If cracked like Werner's there wont be many options as the banjo nuts are captive on the oil cooler. It might be possible to TIG weld the crack, but the welder will need to be good.

[Deleted]

I was under the impression early 600's didn't have coolers.
That boss is aluminium on the 900, therefore repairs would be really tricky.
Might be worth trying a few runs without the cooler and a higher temperature spec oil, if your skint.
How about breakers for a spare?

I think a new one for my 900 was about £150. I had to go for it due to not wanting any problems while touring abroad.

Good luck

[CD]

I'd try welding it. The 600 I used to have certainly needed the cooler and IMO would have been better with a bigger cooler and thermostat flow control. Hot weather an slow traffic really cooked the engine.

[Deleted]

A tip I got for repairing radiators was to fill them with water up to the repair site to act as a heat sink. I repaired a car radiator this way, worked a treat.
Have you got any silver solder? Might be easier to use than welding and it has great capillary action.
Good luck

[HRHpenfold]

you'll not weld it, itll destroy it, try chemical metal to fill the crack, and ptfe tape on the threads ;D

[Deleted]

fazerian said:

you'll not weld it, itll destroy it, try chemical metal to fill the crack, and ptfe tape on the threads ;D

Tried that on mine, no good I think the oil penetration in the crack, ooeerrr, stopped the stuff from getting a good grip. Also the vibration doesn't help. We had a lot of posts on this years ago, and I don't remember a successful repair

[CD]

Agree about oil in the crack, but JB Weld chemical metal is unlikely to hold when the threads are tightened. I think the only option is TIG welding (Tungsten arc Inert Gas). A good welder might be able to do it, but if it fails at least you tried - then its a breakers and hope the replacement isn't cracked in the same place.

Another option is a band around the hexagon held in with JB Weld. Snag then is getting a spanner onto it.

[paulcook]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, this really is a helpful group!

Quite a variety of suggestions. I think weighing it all up I'm flogging a dead horse with this oil cooler. It would appear that repair is difficult and, if I managed it, would be of dubious reliability. I feel that tightening the banjo bolt even moderately will put a lot of opening force on the fracture.

I can't run to a new cooler and used ones may have the same or other problems. The pipework leading to the cooler is also past it's best.

I think that, for now, I am going to have to remove the oil cooler adaptor from the front of the engine and remove the pipes and cooler. I tend to do most of my riding in the evening or morning. It's quite rare for me to be out in the mid-day sun - the mid-day sun's pretty rare anyway.

I know some have suggested that the cooler is necessary but I believe it wasn't fitted prior to '96 or on the pre diversion XJ600 (correct me if I'm wrong here).

Has anyone had overheating problems on pre oil cooler 600's?

I wonder if removing it would help with condensation problems in the breather pipes as (again feel free to correct me) these problems reportedly got worse around the time the oil cooler was fitted.

I'm new to Divvy's so excuse any ignorance or misconceptions.

Comments appreciated.

Thanks again all

Cookie

[Deleted]

Cookie, all you can do is try. There are a huge range of oils available, so a high temp. spec might do. If you can get hold of a contact temperature gauge and check the temp after a run it would help, also always keep the level at max.
The 2nd hand route is dodgy in this kind of part, this cracking is a known problem in the 600 & 900.
Have you thought about taking it to a radiator repair company?

[CD]

A radiator repairer has to be worth a try. My 600 had an oil cooler but would get stinking hot in slow traffic. If it was not possible to filter I would turn off the engine and wait. Not good.

If you can find an engineering company that has a TIG welder, they can possibly merge the crack edges together and would take only 5 mins. The metal looks thick enough for the weld to not penetrate into the threads. A suitable threaded bolt to support the cracked nut would further help.

The bad news is that such a weld wont be a proper job as welding correctly right though would destroy the threads and probably the nut itself. But its way cheaper than even a used oil cooler and IMO worth the risk.

MIG uses inert gas Argon for aluminium, CO2 for ferrous and feeds a plain filler wire into the arc. TIG does not use a filler wire. The arc is struck from a tungsten electode and is used like the flame of an oxy-acetylene torch, but with the inert gas shield it wont burn the aluminium.

[General Gman]

Cookie, old fella - if you remove the oil take-off plate, you'll need to get a different lenth adaptor for the oil filter.Prolly best thing is to buy one for an early divvy 600 (the ones that didn't have the cooler).I really don't think you'll have too much of a problem without the oil cooler - there's enough of the early ones around without them running fine.Alternatvely do what I did and bodge one from another bike - I found a GSX750 one on ebay.Thread was finer than the Yam item, but I used the banjo bolts to ease the thread in, and it fitted ok.Had to make some different brackets up, but it never leaked......

[Deleted]

Another idea for a bodge is to do away with the banjo's. Some coolers, (Suzuki) have a small diamond shaped flange instead of banjo's. I thought this a much better idea, better two bolts holding the flange on than a banjo bolt. I'm sure a lot of the problems were caused by tightening up the banjo bolt without another spanner on the cooler hex to take up the force.

[HRHpenfold]

they do sometimes com up on ebay, but as suggested a radiator repair company would be able to hard solder it, or replace it, which is a better solution, other than that as said, an earlier did ok without the cooler.

[HRHpenfold]

anyhow, i would try the chemical metal, then use a jubilee clip around the fitting, coz im a prime bodger ;D

[pebbles]

well i am fairly sure that if the yamaha engineers
felt a oil cooler was needed then there is a chance
that they know best

[CD]

I'm with Pebbles.
But if you can fit a bigger cooler from a Suzuki then go for it. BUT only if you also fit a thermostat flow control. Over-cool oil is really bad for an engine.
If you decide to fit a non original cooler in front of the frame tubes make sure the wheel wont hit it on full bump.

[HRHpenfold]

pebbles said:

well i am fairly sure that if the yamaha engineers
felt a oil cooler was needed then there is a chance
that they know best

this is true, but they managed for a few years without and it was sold in hotter countries than here, never had a problem with my non oil cooler bike, but never got caught up in trafick, but i think doofer had a problem with one of hers

[leehenty]

I have an oil temp gauge in the oil filler hole on my 95 600s without an oil cooler. I rarely see more than 80 deg c on the dial even in quite warm weather. In very hot weather I have seen 95 idling in traffic but moving it drops to about 85. good synthetic oil is the key to hot engines as it doesnt break down as much.

[HRHpenfold]

did you get it sorted?

[paulcook]

Hi Penfold,

I've ordered the shorter oil filter screw and a new 'o' ring as I've decided to remove the cooler for now (may keep my eyes open for a good used cooler for later).

Where the crack is on mine the alloy has flaked a bit and looks a bit 'crumbly' so I think a repair is a bit of a no-go.

I've done a bit of delving and it appears that at the time the cooler was fitted the main jets were reduced in size slightly (from 102.5 to 100 if memory serves me right). I've had a chat with a mate who runs a small bike shop and he thought this was connected with changes in Euro emission regulations at the time. The cooler would have taken care of any warmer running due to the slightly leaner mixture on large throttle openings.

He said that he has removed the cooler on several bikes without any comebacks.

I'll give it a go and if it seems to be getting hotter than usual I'll try putting the main jets back to the pre '96 sizes.

A lot of this is obviously conjecture but the theory sounds reasonable so it's worth fiddling around with.

Fingers crossed eh?

Cookie

[General Gman]

TBH, if it's only the main jets that were changed then the normal running of the bike would not be affected - you only get onto the main jet when you're over 3/4 throttle - the needle jets control the circuit from idel to that point.I very much doubt you'll have problems with overheating unless you spend a prolonged period at full throttle.

[HRHpenfold]

paulcook said:

Hi Penfold,

I've ordered the shorter oil filter screw and a new 'o' ring as I've decided to remove the cooler for now (may keep my eyes open for a good used cooler for later).

Where the crack is on mine the alloy has flaked a bit and looks a bit 'crumbly' so I think a repair is a bit of a no-go.

I've done a bit of delving and it appears that at the time the cooler was fitted the main jets were reduced in size slightly (from 102.5 to 100 if memory serves me right). I've had a chat with a mate who runs a small bike shop and he thought this was connected with changes in Euro emission regulations at the time. The cooler would have taken care of any warmer running due to the slightly leaner mixture on large throttle openings.

He said that he has removed the cooler on several bikes without any comebacks.

I'll give it a go and if it seems to be getting hotter than usual I'll try putting the main jets back to the pre '96 sizes.

A lot of this is obviously conjecture but the theory sounds reasonable so it's worth fiddling around with.

Fingers crossed eh?

Cookie

what he said ;D

still worth looking into the local car radiator repair center though

[Doofer]

fazerian said:

pebbles said:

well i am fairly sure that if the yamaha engineers
felt a oil cooler was needed then there is a chance
that they know best

this is true, but they managed for a few years without and it was sold in hotter countries than here, never had a problem with my non oil cooler bike, but never got caught up in trafick, but i think doofer had a problem with one of hers

Ian's right, I managed to heat seize my first divvy (1992, pre-oilcooler model)

I got stuck in traffic on the M6, there had been a big accident quite a distance ahead but moving out to filter was not an option. I don't recall exactly when it happened now, but I do remember it was early evening on a fairly cool and wet Friday. Although the bike did still run afterwards, it never ran right and fouled up spark plugs every 100 miles, as I couldn't aford to be without reliable transport I'm afriad the bike got traded in.

As a result of that I am working on fitting an oil cooler to my 1993 600 (the 1997 already has one) to reduce the chances of it happening again.

Doof