Speed limiters yes, speed limiters no??

[alpaholic]

pebbles said:

a big no to limiters and a bigger no to inflatable bombs use the
real thing if u do not put a stop to countries like those our
kids and grandkids will be the ones that die from the fallout
and if u think they wouldnt use em if they had em thats your first
mistake and if u think racist forget it not in any shape or form
i just know pure evil when i see it

Countries like those?

Iraq was/is made up of Sunni, Shia (Persians, effectively Iranians) and Kurds.

The Kurds had formed a De Facto nation before the occupation so the no change for them. The Sunnis admitedly did get their arse's kicked. That leaves the majority - the Shias. Persian's. Effectively Iranians and funded by Iran. Serious enemies of the US.

So we had a country run by a secular Government who had been contained for years but was preventing the Shias joining Iran - and was an Ally against Iran.

Now we've deposed a country opposed to Iran and left 3/4 of the population to become effectively an Iranian client state.

D*i*c*k[1] Chainey(sp?) actually said after the first GUlf war that Saddam should *not* be deposed for exactly these reasons. It was America's policy and it worked!

Now Iraq wasn't a threat. (and I think it's safe to say now that the UK and US didn't have the evidence we claimed to have pre-war, but that's kind of academic.)

In contrast Iran *was* and *is* a threat. Korea *was* and *is* a threat.

We've very directly strengthened Iran due to the war, by removing a bordering neighbour and handing the Iraqi Shia majority over to them. We strengthened Korea by enlisting Pakistan in the war on terror which freed a Pakistani weapons expert to help Korea work on their Nuclear weapons.

What's more invading two of Iran's neighbours isn't a very effective way to convince them they don't need nukes. Can you imagine if Iran invaded Scotland and Wales and then told us we should disarm?

How the hell is that putting a stop to 'these countries'?

Good writers on the subject:
Galbraith
Kampfner
Coughlin
Cohen
Simpson

[1] I'm all for a swear filter but D*i*c*k FFS!

[iooi]

Speed limiters fine, so long as every other vehicle using the roads has the same limit. Lets face it lorrys and coaches already have them, so in reality it is only a matter of time before everything else has then too.
The only danger is like you find with lorrys etc now they tail gate so as not to lose speed, as its so hard to get back up there again.

[pebbles]

give me binge drinking over global terrorism anyday
i do not binge drink anymore but when i have
i did not kill ,maime, torture or knock down large buildings
killing 3000 people,blow up cars when people walk by
perhaps they should all sit down and have a drink
and todays inocent will grow up tomorrow and try
to kill you,make mine a vodka

[Fender 54]

They want to start with limeters on `White Van Man`before they start on motorcycles.

[Ghoti]

A quick flick through MCN implies that Ladyman is not for speed limiters either.

I'll have a read an post his findings later.

[werner1]

Sounds dangerous, such a speed limitor .

e.g : you overhaul a truck and sudenly the automatique speed limiter kicks in .

or ..you are at max inclination taking your favorite curb when this happens .

[m40man]

ghoti said:

A quick flick through MCN implies that Ladyman is not for speed limiters either.

I'll have a read an post his findings later.

Yes - He has stated his opposition. I suspect advocates are inexperienced in all things motorcyle!

You might find this extract useful, for establishing his sensible posture:

"Select Committee on Transport Minutes of Evidence

Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260-277

DR STEPHEN LADYMAN MP AND MR ANDREW COLSKI
7 FEBRUARY 2007

Q267 Chairman: Good. What is your view about limiters? A lot of people feel that one way you can deal with more and more powerful bikes is to fit them with limiters and it would not be beyond the technical prowess of the industry; what is your view of that?

Dr Ladyman: I am not sure that I understand where they would be of benefit. When we are talking about younger motorcyclists anyway we have power restrictions on what they can ride. If you are talking about limiters for high-powered vehicles for adults—


Q268 Chairman: It is not comparable in one way but you are prepared to accept limiters on powerful coaches so that they do not go above a certain speed, and you know that speed actually is a real element in accidents. Why have you not been prepared to consider limiters on very, very powerful bikes which are getting bigger and more powerful by the day?

Dr Ladyman: The philosophical argument there would then have to apply also to motor cars. I am prepared to engage in a debate about that but not just for motorcycles; why would we limit the speed of motorcycles but allow people to buy an Aston Martin that can probably do nearly 200 miles an hour? What would be right for one sector would have to be applied to the other sector. What we have looked at—and to be frank with you it is probably a longer term issue about speed and there are no immediate plans—is whether intelligent speed adaptation would work on motorcycles and we have done some research on cars as well. We did that research, not because we have any intention of introducing ISA on cars or on motorbikes, we are not in a position to introduce it because we do not yet have a digital map of speed limits around the country that it could use to determine what the speed limit is in any particular area, but we did that research because there is a body of opinion starting to grow that ISA has a future in road transport and should the political debate ever move towards that we want to be in a position to be able to inform that debate with some evidence. We did some research, largely using motorcars, but we did fit a motorbike with ISA to see whether ISA can be operated safely on a motorbike, because you have to remember that on a motorbike of course when you are going around a bend what you do with power in order to remain stable is very different than what you do with a motor car when you are going around a bend. The last thing you would need when you are taking a bend at speed on a motorcycle is for the engine to cut out because it is detecting that you are going too fast. We needed to know, therefore, whether ISA is technically possible on a motorbike and we did some experiments and, broadly speaking, it probably is technically possible, but we have no plans for introducing it. As I say, we may face that debate at some point in the future.


Q269 Chairman: Is that evidence published anywhere?

Dr Ladyman: I believe so. "

Full transcript here:
www.publications.parliament.uk/cgi-bin/newhtml_hl?DB=semsimple&STEMMER=en&WORDS=motorcycl%20speed%20limit&ALL=&ANY=&PHRASE=&CATEGORIES=&SIMPLE=motorcycle%20speed%20limiting&SPEAKER=&COLOUR=Red&STYLE=s&ANCHOR=muscat_highlighter_first_match&URL=/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmtran/264/7020722.htm#muscat_highlighter_first_match

[alpaholic]

m40man said:

The last thing you would need when you are taking a bend at speed on a motorcycle is for the engine to cut out because it is detecting that you are going too fast. We needed to know, therefore, whether ISA is technically possible on a motorbike and we did some experiments and, broadly speaking, it probably is technically possible, but we have no plans for introducing it.

So it's a non story.

[m40man]

alpaholic said:

m40man said:

So it's a non story.

Not at all. Members of parliament are seeking it. Ladyman seems to have a sensible approach right now. But politicians do not always adopt the sensible approach to things when lobbied by their peers or external interest groups.

[Ghoti]

m40man said:

alpaholic said:

So it's a non story.

Not at all. Members of parliament are seeking it. Ladyman seems to have a sensible approach right now. But politicians do not always adopt the sensible approach to things when lobbied by their peers or external interest groups.

Agree with M40Man here. Putting number plates on ALL* motorcycles is not part of the Transport team's idea, but due to a little jumped up goit with a thing against motorbikes and no idea of common sence, it looks like it will be law soon.

* = If you don't know, all includes race bikes, field bikes, mini motos etc.

[alpaholic]

ghoti said:

m40man said:

Putting number plates on ALL* motorcycles is not part of the Transport team's idea, but due to a little jumped up goit with a thing against motorbikes and no idea of common sence, it looks like it will be law soon.

Number plates? Is that correct, I thought it was simply that the bike had to be registered? I always used to register my off roaders when I was a kid. (That was before speed cameras of course.)


PS I was asking if it was a non story, not stating that as an opinion!

[Deleted]

OK I might be missing the point but what is wrong with registering all bikes ?

Unless they're advocating MOT and Tax for off road bikes of course.

[tj63]

As I understand it, they do all have to be able to pass an MOT, so a lot of bikes in museums would be incapable of being registered.

Also, back to the original subject, Stephen Ladyman is quoted in today's MCN as saying that the report advocating speed limiting bikes is "cobblers". Nice turn of phrase for a Parliamentary sub-committee, but it got the message across.


Trevor

[Ghoti]

bev said:

OK I might be missing the point but what is wrong with registering all bikes ?

Unless they're advocating MOT and Tax for off road bikes of course.

Registering is OK, but to register your bike has to be road legal and once registered it must display a number plate at all times.

OK for most of us, but mini motos (even those used legally) and racing bikes all fall under the same rule at the moment. There is no way a MotoGP bike or even WSB/BSB, trials bikes, stunt bikes etc will pass a MOT (so wont be able to register) and even less chance they will want to race with a number plate stuck to the back of the bike. Minimotos will have a plate as tall as the bike.


Alpaholic: Sorry I took 'So it's a non story' to be a statement. My bad. I thought questions ended in ?

[Deleted]

Trevor,

Not absolutely sure why you would need an MOT to register a bike. Couldn't they just add a type 'off road use only.' Also how can it be legal to stop you off road ?

If not used on roads there is also no need for Tax. I suspect this is intended to stop little oiks racing round on stripped down nicked bikes rather than hitting genuine off roaders.

Of course Gordon will find a way to fleece us anyway.

[suzukikidontheloose53]

Got a reply from MP,titled: Speed Limits for Motorcycles, rather than Speed Limiters for Motorcycles, so don't know if he read my e-mail a bit too fast ,anyway says he has raised my concerns with the Minister of State for Transport and when he gets a reply from him he will let me know

[Ghoti]

flurogreenscreen47 said:

Got a reply from MP,titled: Speed Limits for Motorcycles, rather than Speed Limiters for Motorcycles, so don't know if he read my e-mail a bit too fast ,anyway says he has raised my concerns with the Minister of State for Transport and when he gets a reply from him he will let me know

Unfortunately, the Minister of State for Transport appears to be on our side at the moment.

Anyway, slighly unrelated, but now there is a call for ALL vehicles to be insured (even if off road). news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4288895.stm. Why do I want to pay insurance for a bike/car that I have no plans to use?

[Andy-Red-Divi]

So how would this work for vehicles that you've declared SORN for?


Andy

[m40man]

andyreddivi said:

So how would this work for vehicles that you've declared SORN for?


Andy

........... and what risks are you insuring these unused vehicles for / against??

[Andy-Red-Divi]

you notice who made the call for all vehicles to be insured... the insurance industry, who would be the ones to benefit... money grabbing bar stewards.

Andy

[m40man]

Getting back on-topic, speed limiters,

"Giving evidence to the committee[1], transport author Stephen Plowden said he could not see why anyone needed a bike with a top speed of more than 65 mph."

I do wonder how this man holds influence. He seems regarded as some sort of impartial 'expert' witness to gov't committees. But he's quite the opposite. He is a technical adviser to the Slower Speed Initiative. That doesn't sound very unbiased.

and..

""Mr Plowden agreed that it is hard to see why anyone except the police, military and emergency services, needs a powerful, heavy machine, as did the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) who could not see any justification for producing powerful vehicles that can reach speeds of more than twice the maximum speed limit and suggested that motorcycles be limited to 125cc".



[1] Read the report here: www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmtran/264/264.pdf

Stephen Plowden: Author of "Speed Control and Transport Policy", "Danger on the Road (Policy Studies Institute)" & "Taming Traffic" and other balanced & unsensationally-titled missives on transport.

[HRHpenfold]

i think we should have to hand in all knives we have in our kitchens, would cut knife crime.


well thats what they used as an excuse to ban guns and that worked not ;D

[HRHpenfold]

Anyhow, there is already limiters, its called wind resistance ;D

not that im trying to get of being a hardly rider ;D

[alpaholic]

ghoti said:

bev said:

OK I might be missing the point but what is wrong with registering all bikes ?

Unless they're advocating MOT and Tax for off road bikes of course.

Registering is OK, but to register your bike has to be road legal

That's defniately not the case. How could it be? All my old off roaders were registered to me from the age of about 8 upwards. My dad has a Triumph Cub in cardboard three boxes in his garage, that's registered to him. My brother bought a Honday frame. That was registered to him without any components on it at all. So, unless things changed recently I'd say you're wrong...

[CD]

I believe that in order to FIRST register any road vehicle, it must be in a road legal condition. An MOT certificate can be part of that requirement.

This law is ridiculously simplistic. It will cause all sorts of side effects and will do absolutely nothing to fix the original problem of yobs riding minimotos around council estates.

[alpaholic]

chirodave said:

I believe that in order to FIRST register any road vehicle, it must be in a road legal condition. An MOT certificate can be part of that requirement.

Ahhh that may be correct. (Although I'm still not sure, my I can't imagine my Dad's Fantic 250 and my Brother's TY125 having been road legal as new. Mind you I can't be sure they were registered.)

[pebbles]

white van man has had his day,its ford focus
drivers u have look out for

[suzukikidontheloose53]

Penfold wrote:

i think we should have to hand in all knives we have in our kitchens, would cut knife crime.


well thats what they used as an excuse to ban guns and that worked not

How would we cut our bread? chopsticks?

Which reminds me,can anyone think of something more useless than ONE chopstick?

[alpaholic]

"the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) who could not see any justification for producing powerful vehicles that can reach speeds of more than twice the maximum speed limit and suggested that motorcycles be limited to 125cc"

I missed this first time around....

[Welsh Ade]

alpaholic said:

"the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) who could not see any justification for producing powerful vehicles that can reach speeds of more than twice the maximum speed limit and suggested that motorcycles be limited to 125cc"

I missed this first time around....

Mmmmmm could be an interesting topic of conversation