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Post by jimster99 on Jul 29, 2020 22:28:47 GMT
Hi all,
I have a lovely and newly acquired 1995 Yamaha Diversion 900 that is not starting. The lights and electrics all seem to be OK, and the battery is new and charged (showing 12.6v and dropping to only 12,4v when attempting to crank the engine). When I turn the ignition on I hear a single click - which I assume is from the solenoid - but nothing else. The starter motor doesn't spin. The oil and fuel lights turn on while the ignition switch is being pressed and then turn off once released. The neutral light stays on, and I am pulling the clutch handle and brake handles in (I don't think this is required, but it's an old habit).
Today, I took the starter motor off and disassembled it and cleaned it all up - there was a lot of gunk on the actuators which I cleaned off with some fine sandpaper (taking care not to scratch the copper) and put it back on. I was pretty convinced this would be the issue, so I was quite disappointed that the bike didn't roar back into life.
The bike has apparently sat for a couple of years with minimal use, so perhaps something else has gunked up.
I haven't tried bump starting the bike yet (it's on a trailer) and I haven't tried connecting 12v direct to the starter motor to see what happens, or to see if I can jump start the bike. I will try these tomorrow if I can get hold of some jump cables.
I also haven't checked whether the engine spins - not sure how to do this. I also need to double check that 12v is actually getting to the starter motor - I'll explore with the multi meter tomorrow to check this.
Any tips / hints / am I on the right lines? Thanks all!!
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Post by cam7777 on Jul 30, 2020 6:59:19 GMT
Assuming that the engine hasn't seized. Firstly, ensure battery is fully charged. Bridge the solenoid connections to see if the bike turns over, if it does, change the solenoid. I could be a bad earth connection, either to the battery or frame. Also check neutral light is on, as staring is inhibited in gear, also check the kill switch is set to the 'run' position.
Report back with your findings and we'll take it from there, I am sure others will be along with their vast knowledge, and your issues will soon be over
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Post by m40man on Jul 30, 2020 10:43:42 GMT
Once the bike is off the trailer, push it along with clutch in, in 2nd gear, let the clutch go & you will see if the engine is seized (which I think is unlikely). Just be mindful that the engine could fire up so be prepared to grab the front brake just in case (so best done sitting astride, & getting someone else to do the pushing  ) Once you get the starter motor going you can then check, if it still doesn't start, that the plugs are getting fuel - which can then suggest whether the non-starting is likely fuel starvation or instead an issue with the electrics. |
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Post by jimster99 on Jul 30, 2020 14:38:28 GMT
Hi all,
Quick update - I have now verified that there is 12v going into the starter motor when the ignition is pressed and the starter motor doesn't move. The starter motor also doesn't move even when off the bike with 12v across it, so I think it's not a seized engine or a broken relay or a fuel problem - there must be a fault with the starter motor itself. So I think I need to take it apart again and check that I haven't messed something up and give it a further clean, then keep testing it until it does something. I also want to go pick up some electrical contact cleaner and some crocus cloth for some further cleaning out. I may also just order a new starter motor!
I haven't had the time to get the bike off the trailer to see if I can bump start it, since it is extremely well strapped down on the trailer, and very heavy (260kg with fuel...) so I'm a bit nervous about unloading by myself. So I will probably wait until I have got the starter motor sorted before trying this.
Thanks for the help & tips!
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Post by nickygee11 on Jul 30, 2020 19:52:06 GMT
Maybe worth getting another starter motor off e-bay, about £40, then see if it starts then. If not you've ruled that out and stick it back on e-bay and get you money back.
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Post by bobh on Jul 30, 2020 21:32:18 GMT
This doesn't sound like it's your issue, but worth noting as something for future reference.
The last time out on the Fazer 8, it needed 2-3 stabs at the button to bring the starter motor in. I could hear the relay clicking, but nothing else. So starting with the obvious I checked the battery terminals, and they both took maybe a small fraction of a turn to nip them right up to fully tight.
I did fit a new battery a couple of years ago, but this is the first time I've had this problem, and I've never had it with any other bike. I always fit a charging lead as soon as I get any bike that's new (to me), so I've had the terminal screws off and on again in every case without a problem until now. Hopefully this was just a one-off, but I think it's something to check at the annual service in future. Fortunately the battery is easy to get at, but that's not always the case - the MT-03 that Martin's just sold was a real so-and-so, if I remember.
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Post by jimster99 on Aug 3, 2020 15:02:56 GMT
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Post by cam7777 on Aug 3, 2020 19:40:32 GMT
The 900 doesn't have a battery strap, it's held in place with a plastic cover |
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Post by sledgegreen on Aug 6, 2020 19:04:42 GMT
I would go with the get a starter off e-bay idea. If it turns out that your existing starter is duff, then that is needed spending anyway. If your existing starter is good (or mendable), then the new one can be used as a standard for comparisons, and then sold to reclaim (most) of your money.
As the bike has been standing, I wouldn't rush to start it. All of the old oil will have drained to the bottom, and there will be lots of dry bits. There may also be some rusty bits, and bits where the old oil got trapped and gunned up in place. I would:
1. Check the old oil. If it in reasonable condition leave it in for the moment, but top it up. If it is really horrible, change it for some cheap oil - this is only going to be used flush crap out of the engine anyway.
2. Remove the plugs and put a couple of teaspoons of oil into each cylinder. Get some lube on the piston rings. Put the plugs back in, but only loosely - they are only there to stop rubbish getting in. Leave it over night to give the oil time to soak in.
3. Plugs out again, and a fresh teaspoon of oil for each cylinder. This time leave the plugs out - plugs out means no compression, which makes the engine easier to turn.
4. Turn the engine over manually. Either put it in gear and push it to and fro, or put it in gear whilst on the centre stand and weigh the front end down to lift the rear wheel off the floor and turn the rear wheel by hand. This will spread oil which you put in over the cylinder linings, but it probably will not do anything to get oil through the rest of the engine.
5. Now, use the starter to spin the engine fast enough to get the oil circulating. Leave the plugs out, and take them out of the plug caps to prevent sparks. Use several short bursts, and then some longer bursts. You should find that the engine gets easier to turn as the oil gets around, and as any jams get freed up.
6. Now, refit the plugs and caps try to start it. If it starts, don't rev it, but let it warm up properly. Then change the oil whilst it is still hot - hot oil drains better.
7. I would fill with cheap oil, and replace with good oil after 500 - 1000 miles.
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Post by bobh on Aug 7, 2020 15:39:44 GMT
I'd also put a new filter on at that first change, and probably at the second as well.
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Post by sledgegreen on Aug 7, 2020 21:12:14 GMT
Good point Bob. Thank you.
Giving advice on the internet is like redecorating - you get that nice smug feeling of a job well done, and then somebody says "you missed a bit".
I should also have said that the point of the short bursts of starter motor is to avoid any small too-hot areas. You will have a lot of places where metal is rubbing on metal until the oil reaches them. They will get hot, and if they get too hot that might be a problem. So, short burst, then pause to allow any hot spots to dissipate. Because you are dealing with chunky bits of steel, heat dissipation will be quick - no need for long pauses. But if you start off running the starter continuously, hot spots will just get hotter and hotter and hotter until the oil reaches them.
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Post by jimster99 on Aug 13, 2020 22:23:53 GMT
Thanks Sledgegreen & bobh! The good news is the bike is running again after I took the starter motor off and gave it a further clean (with extremely fine wet sandpaper and electrical contact spray). Wahey! I did order a new starter and I then managed to repair the original starter the day before the new one arrived so (a bit like waiting for buses) I now have 2 working starters. The current starter motor is definitely on its last legs however - the brushes are fully 1mm below what the Haynes manual says is the minimum length and they are only just touching the rotating thing (armature?). So the spare will be kept in anticipation of being pressed into use soon.
I will do as Bob suggested before running the bike for any length of time, although I couldn't resist letting it go for a minute or two - it sounds pretty good. Nothing stuck, as far as I could tell, although I had to pull the choke out a bit although it then ran fine with the choke fully in.
I now just need to convert the bike for use in the UK (it's a Dutch registered bike at present). Easy part of this is changing the headlight alignment, hard part is converting the speedo from km/hr to mp/hr as it doesn't (unfortunately!) have a dual speedo. Any suggestions for how to do this to pass the MOT? I'd love to just prise the speedo cover off and put a UK calibrated sticker over the existing numbers - but I'm not sure the gauge is easy to get to nor do I know where to order a suitable sticker. The headlight is apparently moved by adjusting some screws, so that should only take a few minutes.
@cam777 - thanks, my question was a bad one!
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Post by bobh on Aug 14, 2020 15:17:09 GMT
I have known people riding imported bikes with Nm only speedos who seeem to have managed with just a sticker on the outside. Maybe check with your local MoT station to see what they would accept?
The headlight is a different matter - the issue is it will dip to the right rather than the left, and that can't be changed by adjustment. Again, check if your MoT station will accept taping over the dipped section of the lens.
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Post by spike240 on Aug 14, 2020 19:51:04 GMT
I am pretty certain the speedo is not part of the mot. If it was me I would just mark the speedo 30, 40, 60 mph similar to what Bob suggested.
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Post by sledgegreen on Aug 14, 2020 21:17:55 GMT
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Post by bobh on Aug 15, 2020 15:29:49 GMT
Bob, I am curious about these aquatic bike with speedos calibrated in knots. Please tell us more. No, it's Newton-metres, so you know the pulling power of your bike ....  |
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Post by jimster99 on Aug 16, 2020 22:37:25 GMT
Thanks for the continued feedback!
So I have had the bike checked out by a professional and some more problems emerge! The front calipers are sticking (but the wheel still moves), the front seals need replacing (but I believe some bikes pass their MOT by having the forks cleaned prior to MOT so I could try that), the exhaust is apparently blowing (not sure where). I'm hoping I can unstick the calipers by moving them a few times (unrealistic?), the exhaust I need to figure out where the leak is and then hope to fit a coke can or similar with some exhaust glue and the fork seals can (hopefully...) be done by cleaning the forks carefully prior to the test.
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Post by spike240 on Aug 17, 2020 8:05:39 GMT
If you have the bike on centre stand and jack up the front wheel so it clears the ground. Check the wheel turns freely. There will be a bit of drag, but it should turn easily. Apply the front brake a couple of times and try spinning the wheel again - it should still turn easily. If the calipers have not been cleaned recently I would do that anyway. If the fork seals are leaking, they really should be looked at - its in your own interest. The exhaust will probably be leaking at one or more of the collector box joints - there are six to look at. You may have an after market Motad collector fitted, which is made from stainless but they don't have the gaskets fitted like the original, and is difficult to get a good seal.
Best of luck.
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Post by bobh on Aug 17, 2020 21:07:55 GMT
If the bike's been standing for a while, and quite probably hasn't been fully serviced for even longer, it's probable that the brake fluid will need to be changed. And while doing that it's a good idea to pop the pistons out part-way and give them a good clean and a smear of red rubber grease. Also to clean and lightly lube the sliders and the ends of the pads so they are free to move (I'm assuming the bike still has the original 2-pot calipers and hasn't had the blue-spot upgrade).
I'm not sure if anyone's asked this - whereabouts are you? It's possible that someone nearby could come round and offer advice.
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Post by jimster99 on Aug 18, 2020 13:14:30 GMT
Thanks Bobh! I'm in London (SE1 area) but may take the bike down to my parent's house in Brighton soon (as they have a secure space I can leave it).
The bike has the original 2 pot calipers (I believe). Is draining the brake fluid a major effort? The Haynes manual makes it sound pretty hard work.
One other question if I may - is there a good recommended source of spare parts for the bike e.g. replacement seals, brushes etc? I've been using Halfords, Screwfix & Tool station so far.
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Post by spike240 on Aug 18, 2020 20:32:11 GMT
Genuine parts are available from Fowlers and are extremely reliable and quick (next day) delivery.
Or after market parts from Wemoto which are cheaper than original and in my experience the service is good.
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Post by Beehill on Aug 19, 2020 7:40:47 GMT
If you move the bike to Brighton Wemoto are only down the road in Southwick ( 7, Grange Road Industrial Estate, Albion Street, Brighton BN42 4EN)
Andy
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Post by m40man on Aug 19, 2020 8:52:47 GMT
If you move the bike to Brighton won't that mean you can't work on it so often?
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Post by bobh on Aug 19, 2020 21:46:30 GMT
Is draining the brake fluid a major effort? The Haynes manual makes it sound pretty hard work. It's pretty straightforward - just pump out one side and then the other until the fluid coming out is clear. Keep the reservoir topped up to avoid getting air in the system, which will mean you have to bleed it which is more of a pain. It helps to have a simple bleeding kit with a non-return valve in the pipe, but that's not essential, just nip the bleed screw up as you release the lever so as not to draw fluid back into the caliper. Assuming you have the original hose layout, with a splitter block on the forks (if I remember correctly) it probably doesn't matter which side you do first. It is a messy procedure - it's well-nigh impossible to do it without some fluid escaping, so a) try to catch as much as possible with rags or paper wipes b) make sure none goes anywhere near the pads and c) give the whole area a good wash-down with bike cleaner and water afterwards, before it's had time to affect the paint. If you're going to pop the pistons out part-way to clean them, do that first. Then when you're happy that they are clean and don't have any rough bits that could damage the seals, push them right home and block them there with a clamp or a chunk of wood or similar while you change the fluid. That way there is the minimum amout of fluid actually in the caliper, and it will flush out more thoroughly. Obviously doing it this way means that the calipers won't be bolted to the bike, so an extra pair of hands might be useful. For cleaning the pistons I use a length of plastic strapping - it's quite rough without being abrasive, and so cleans them up quite nicely (unless they're badly corroded, of course). And it get around the back where it's hard to reach by other means. Alternatively you can get a gadget to grip the piston on its internal bore to rotate it for access. Having cleaned the pistons I then use another virgin piece of strapping to apply a smear of red rubber grease (NOT any other type of lubricant) before pushing them home. They should move with firm thumb pressure - anything much in excess of that implies a build-up of crud in the seal grooves - which these calipers are rather prone to - in which case they'll need stripping and cleaning. Of course, everyone has their own variation these jobs, so don't be surprised if others advocate another way of doing it. Apologies, that's a rather long-winded reply, but I thought it best to cover all bases. |
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Post by jimster99 on Aug 20, 2020 4:11:42 GMT
Thanks bobh - that is an incredibly detailed reply! I really do appreciate it. You're a superstar!
Spike240 - thanks for the recommendations re: Fowlers and wemoto. Beehill / m40man - yes, if I move the bike to Brighton I won't be able to work on it so often, although perhaps I can take a few days to visit the folks and really bash on. I didn't know Wemoto was actually near Brighton, that's handy!
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Post by bobh on Sept 2, 2020 20:56:59 GMT
Update on my earlier post about the Fazer needing 2-3 prods of the button to get the starter to work. The relay clicks and several lights come on on the instrument panel, but the starter doesn't turn.
The problem has recurred, so tightening the battery connections wasn't the answer. Fortunately it did start OK (after a couple of prods) this morning, and got the bike to its (deferred) MoT. Where it almost failed on a leaky fork seal, but that's another matter.
I find it hard to believe that it's the starter motor brushes, at less than 20K miles. Also, from limited past experience, if that's the problem it will either spin or not, and no amount of prodding will get it to spin. And looking at the manual the starter motor's bit of a pain to get to - bodywork, tank & throttle bodies off, etc. So I'll start with the relay, which is under the seat, and see if bridging it will give a reliable start.
(Almost) all other suggestions welcome.
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