Indicators (or lack of, rather)

[PrincessPunk]

Evening all so after a summer of running around and my bike running good as gold, i suddenly have an issue!

So i was riding to the shop when down in leeds visiting a friend when i noticed i have no right indicator, the light on the display doesnt light up or anything. when i do click it on, when it comes to usung the left indicator afterwards i have to leave it a few seconds before the switch will activate them. I've tried my hazards and the same issue is happening, nothing coming on at all and once i've used them it takes a few seconds before i get left indicators back.

I've opened up the switch box and, although i had to drill out one of the bolts and that its pretty rank in there, no connections seem, well, unconnected. I've checked the fuses and everythign seems in order and as far as i can tell there are no wires hanging loose. both bulbs seem intact as well! 

Is there maybe some sort of electrical issue that happens with these bikes or is this maybe a thing that happens? because without there being broken connection i cant think what it might be! plus the lag between using the right before the left will work again seems abnormal to me.

I'm pretty stumped for what to do, any electrical wizard's wisdom would be very much appreciated

thanks!

[mlbv]

it could be the switch on the handlebar playing up, physically moving it one way could be realigning the internal workings and contacts.... try unplugging the switch and using a piece of wire to jumper (connect) across and see if they work normally, if they do, the switch is at fault...

[kabulcalling]

As mlbv says.....
Sounds like the switch may be worn out - no longer closing the circuit to make the indicators work.
Also, have you checked the contacts inside the connector plug to make sure they are not rusted out

[PrincessPunk]

I've now changed the switch mechanism over to another one and nothing has changed. i've also poked and prodded just about every connection i can find and reach hah. when you say connector plug kabulcalling, what does it look like/where is it?

[m40man]

Hmmm. Flasher unit then?

[kabulcalling]

Without wishing to sound sarcastic, please forgive me....
you sound like you know what you are doing "drilling out bolts" and "Changing switch mechanism" so no offence is intended by bringing things right back to basics.

All electrical components will connect into the loom at some point with a male/female plastic block, most of which snap into place with a "Click" The connectors are usually positioned behind a fairing panel or under the tank/sear etc to provide some level of weather protection. Unfortunately, the contacts inside can corrode with just damp from storage and time.
My D6 is in the lock up, and I'm not going to see it for a while, so I can't help point out where the connector is, and I can't find one on e-bay for demo purposes.

Hopefully, someone will be along soon with a photo for you,
and
at the same time I'm hoping you are rolling you eyes at this post, thinking, "Yeah - that was the first thing I checked....."

[GAv]

A long shot maybe, is the negative earth from the indicator itself corroded, ok I am clutching at straws and you seem to know what you are about, however these irritating faults can be very testing.

On my old Viva car wouldn't indicate on the left side at first, and that was all it was, a clean with a small copper brush, working.

Can't remember what the indicators are like on the D9 but know I had to repair one of them on the XJ 600 when I got the bike, in fact I have a same size longer one to match the replacement but haven't done it as the dang thing is at the back of the lockup which means it has lowest priority( who said you can never have enough bikes?)

Also are you sure the switch you tried was OK?
I doubt you would get any flashing from a faulty unit, but no doubt someone will Say that is wrong.

The other alternative is to stick your Mit out, like what we used to have to do back in the good ol days, next you'll be wanting to fit heated grips.

[PrincessPunk]

awesome replies thank you so much

m40man Flasher unit seems like it might be the trick, is another name for flasher unit the flasher/turn signal/indicator relay? is that one of those weird box things on the rear/mid left hand side under the fairing (opposite the fuses)? i cant see any external damage to those and there doesnt seem to be any corroded contacts (if it is one of the things i'm thinking of) but it could be possible that something has went inside one of them i suppose, would never be able to see it either. would make sense as well since the hazards suffer the same lack of power. with the hazard circuit not being able to complete through the right indicators, the whole thing wouldnt work... right? i think thats how that works hah *nervous laughter*

man, electrics is pure sorcery.

I'm glad i come across as at least knowing a little bit, i like to think i do unfortunately the only things i can comprehend so far with electronics is the mechanical parts, like the switch for instance. the connections inside the old and new assembly's seem virtually the same, although the donor is much cleaner and preserved, leading me to believe that the chances are the parts work in both. i appreciate the back to basics approach, means we're both on the same page! I've had a look at all the connectors on the bike and while some are a little tatty, none are corroded as such so i'll make that (those?) a priority to find the exact ones and check them over.

GAv, when you say the earth for the indicator, what is that exactly? i mean i get what an earth is but i dont know where i'd find it, surely pretty much the whole thing is earthed to the frame? like i said before, my grasp of electrics is tenuous at bast so bear with me if i'm being daft. what is the thing i'd brush to work the magic?

once again thank you so much! this is helping me learn big time, the suggestions are great and the opportunity to talk to people helps me think. got lots to try now and i'll try take a picture to decribe some of my wafflings

[m40man]

Sept 9, 2016 21:32:49 GMT PrincessPunk said:

...the hazards suffer the same lack of power.

Hmmm. Well, this most likely brings us back to the wiring/connectors rather than the actual relay then - as the hazards have their own separate relay, next to the indicator one under the LHS side panel. (Maybe they are linked, so if one fails, both do - but I doubt it.)

I'd keep checking wiring before the expense of any new relays.

You could try ignition on, RHS indicators on, then move the handlebars fully left then right a few times. If at any point the indicators start to flash, then focus on the wiring loom round the headstock.

[PrincessPunk]

thats a good point i've fished out my haynes manual and looking at the wiring diagram it looks like the indicator relay and hazard relay are connected, so i think there is a chance that maybe one wont work without the other, although slim. and it does seem unlikely that only one connection out of the indicator relay would go (i think anyway)

I'll give the handlebars a turn tomorrow as see what happens, it is uite likely that something has gone wrong there as my brake lines and wiring are a bit untidy and have snagged in the past. there are aftermarket indicators on so i dont know if its the same on stock but there are connections on the indicator wires a few inches in from the indicator that have been pulled apart before (lots of times as well annoyingly) and i've made absolutely sure they are connected, so theres at least two down and, many, many more to go haha.

Was hoping to avoid having to take the front fairing off but i suppose my headlight is needing adjusted anyway, teo birds, one stone i suppose

also as far as expense of a new relay goes, my bike came with a spare loom so theres a chance i may already have one

cheers muchly!

[GAv]

I would give the switch a good dose of WD40 and jiggle the switch back and forth before embarking on a fairing removal, might just be some corrosion, especially as you said it happened far from home ( OK a bit mystifying if you had a spare switch and that didn't work.
Also the bayonet join that the two indicator wires usually push into (with a male female joints) might need a bit of cleaning, light emery cloth, dry wet and dry, or glass paper ( spark plug copper cleaning brush is particularly useful)then dose it with WD and see, could work.
Try also spraying the relay/flasher unit with the WD40, it won't do any harm, thereafter it would need some one more expert with electrics than yours truly, but good for you for tackling the job. Hope you get to the bottom of it and will finish up advising the likes of me on such.

[brianpb]

Just remember the golden rule. More electrical gremlins are caused but bad earth connections than just about anything else!

I gave the guy who bought my Divvy the Haynes manual so I can't look at the diagrams but in most indicator circuits the relay/indicator unit output is fed to the switch which then directs the output left or right according to its position. My first suggestion would be to feed 12v directly onto the left hand indicators as close to the switch as possible and see if they light up. If they don't you have a wiring or earth problem on that side. Good luck.

[PrincessPunk]

Excellent advice and i'm happy to know it, but can you tell me what an earth is, what it looks like and where i might find it? I understand basically what it is but in the circumstance i'm flying blind, all i know is that one of the wires coming out of the indicator will be called the earth and thats about it :/

also how do i put 12 volts through it directly? i've never worked with electrics in pretty much any capacity other than physics in high school when i was told how to wire a plug... 13 years ago haha

[brianpb]

Cars and bikes use the chassis/frame to provide the return leg of electrical circuits back to the battery. So when you turn on a circuit the switch puts 12volts positive on to one side of the bulb/horn etc the other side is connected to the frame (earth) which then completes the circuit back to the negative post on the battery which is connected to the frame.

So on your indicator lamps one of the two connections will be connected to the frame. It is those connections which often cause problems because of loosening caused by vibration or a high resistance caused by corrosion.

The very first thing to do is change the bulbs, I have seen bulbs that look 'fine' but are blown, at the very least you could swap the bulbs right to left to see if the fault swaps sides.

If you have a multimeter, set it to resistance (ohms) and with the ignition OFF check the resistance between the black wire (from memory black wires on the divvy are the earth return wires, if not someone will correct me) from the bike to the indicator and a convenient point on the frame (a nut or bolt head in direct contact with the frame). You should get a reading close to zero but at most a couple of ohms. If it is much more than that you will need to find the point on the frame where the earth return connection is made for that circuit, undo the fastener, clean all the electrical terminals and make sure they have clean bare metal to connect with on the frame before reconnecting them tightly. Check the resistance again and it should be minimal. After that you can wipe a little Vaseline around that connection to keep moisture out if you want to.

If that is all ok and your indicators still don't work move on to the positive side. Set the multimeter to DC volts touch the black lead to the frame as before and the red lead to the second wire to the indicator with ignition and that indicator on. You should see 12 volts coming & going as the circuit flashes. You can also do this bit with a test light if you have one.

If the earth is good and you see the pulsing voltage the indicator bulb or lamp holder is duff.

To to test it quickly you can take a length of insulated wire and bare both ends, connect one end to the input wire on your indicator (normally a coloured wire with a different coloured stripe - I want to say green & red here but that may be a false memory from an old, feeble mind). Very briefly touch the other end to the battery + connection and the indicator should light. If it doesn't go to the instruction above. 

If that doesn't solve your problem let me know and I will take you to the next step. Good luck.

[HRHpenfold]

You would do well to get one of these

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Auto-Test-Probe-PP1-12v-Power-Circuit-Electrical-Tester-Auto-Trade-6-24v-/391255538323?hash=item5b18a5ba93:g:uTYAAOSw9r1V8FjM

it connects to the battery, and has a separate earth clip, you can then power circuits and check for earths, the good thing is that it won't blow the fuse if you get it wrong,

much easier than using a multimeter, and things either work or they don't

start by pushing the probe into the connector that connects the indicator either front or rear, and pressing the positive, if both of that side bulbs light then it's not the earth,

you then need to do the same to the indicator relay, whilst operating the switch, and then onto the switchgear, if that doesn't work

[m40man]

Sept 12, 2016 14:10:40 GMT HRHpenfold said:

You would do well to get one of these

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Auto-Test-Probe-PP1-12v-Power-Circuit-Electrical-Tester-Auto-Trade-6-24v-/391255538323?hash=item5b18a5ba93:g:uTYAAOSw9r1V8FjM

They are handy - bought one myself after seeing one wielded by the greatest man who ever lived .

[PrincessPunk]

brianpb, thank you so much for this explanation! its helped loads in understanding whats actually going on with electrics. filled in a lot of blank areas in my knowledge i'm fairly certain i have a multimeter kicking about somewhere but i could just never make any use of it until now

Fortunately now i have the indicators fixed! i continued my searching and found a connector underneath where i couldnt see without taking the entire front fairing off, which also conveniently and very visibly has a lot of water/weather passing through it. While the contacts in the connector werent too badly corroded, they were corroded enough to stop the thing working and just disconnecting and reconnecting the plug was enough to score the contacts inside that they're now working right as rain i've not a single clue how i would've have taken them out and cleaned them otherwise, these connectors do not look like something that like to come apart, i'd have thought you'd end up pulling the wire out before you'd get the contact out. is there a knack to cleaning these things or a special tool of some kind? i cant figure that particular part, i'm just glad what i did was enough.

i'll touch some vaseline on there to protect it, although i've moved it out of harms way, better to be safe than sorry in fact, i'm going to make a point of going round the bike, finding where things earth to the frame and give everything a good clean and coating of vaseline

thank you everyone for your help, i feel like i finally know what i'm doing with electrics now (well, enough to figure out problems and teach myself further) which is a massive relief because its always been the electrical side of things that have given me the most worry before. I'm very glad you're all here

[kabulcalling]

Will some insulating tape also help protect from future ingress of water on the connectors?

[brianpb]

Glad to be of assistance princess, let me know if you need anything else.

I just had a look at the tester recommended above, there is a video showing its use on sealy.co.uk, looks to be a very useful piece of kit, but prices on the Sealy site are a bit silly, it is less than half price on eBay.

I no longer do much auto electrical stuff so I will stick with my digital multimeter and test light.

[PrincessPunk]

i suppose i could use some insulating tape on the connectors but they're enough of a bastard to get apart if need be as is so i'd rather not add anything sticky into the mix! however i might tape up the spaces that allow the weather in come to think of it

i think i might go for one of those testers, they look pretty sweet and good for a person without a great understanding of whats going on

[GAv]

Doubt you would get tape to stick on liberally grease coated joints, but yes sealing the ways the weather gets in is a good solution.

[brianpb]

I wouldn't use insulating tape on anything. The adhesive goes gooey after a while and it peels apart leaving you with a difficult to remove mess which nothing will stick to.

Only two things anyone should be using on a car or bike,

1. Adhesive lined heat shrink. Should be used if you need to cut into a wire for any reason, the resulting joint should be soldered then heat shrinked over the whole joint.

2. Self amalgating tape, silicon tape that is stretched as it is applied then amalgamates with itself and turns into a solid covering rather than layers.

You can also get heat shrink crimp connectors, but if you have a set of the simple crimpers do yourself a favour and throw them in the bin. For not a lot of money you can then buy a ratchet crimp tool which will crimp connectors properly but more importantly will not release until the terminal is properly and fully crimped.

Anyone who uses scotchlok connectors on a bike or car should hang their head in shame

[teejayexc]

Sept 12, 2016 14:22:06 GMT m40man said:

Sept 12, 2016 14:10:40 GMT HRHpenfold said:

You would do well to get one of these

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sealey-Auto-Test-Probe-PP1-12v-Power-Circuit-Electrical-Tester-Auto-Trade-6-24v-/391255538323?hash=item5b18a5ba93:g:uTYAAOSw9r1V8FjM

They are handy - bought one myself after seeing one wielded by the greatest man who ever lived .

You must have been mistaken I haven't got one.....till now....thanks Ian

[DahDit]

Yep, cheers Ian. Handy link there. 😀