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Post by grumps on Oct 20, 2014 17:47:21 GMT
Yes, I have a rattle at tickover that sounds like the oil drive pin described on other threads. But I have also seen threads about carb balancing and balance shafts too.
Anyway, if I stand on the nearside it sounds like it's coming from the starter motor? (top right rear of engine) and if I stand on the offside it is lower so could be the oil drive pin.
Is there a clear way of identifying the oil pin matter before I strip the clutch out?
Thanks
David
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Post by showaddydadito on Oct 21, 2014 7:17:29 GMT
If it stops when you pull the clutch lever, and starts again when you let it out then:
1 - it's the oil pin.
2 - as above
3 - balancing carbs does help, but it's the oil pin
4 - it's the oil pin
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Post by showaddydadito on Oct 21, 2014 7:20:12 GMT
BTW - the oil pin job is actually quite easy to do, even if you feel unsure about "serious" jobs.
You might want to get a replacement clutch cover gasket in advance. The only thing you need out of the ordinary is the socket for the big nut - I can't remember what size it is, but I think it's either 30 or 40mm.
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Post by crickleymal on Oct 21, 2014 8:35:51 GMT
Is there a quick guide to the oil pin job? I need to do it on mine. I replaced the other pin but it made no difference.
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Post by showaddydadito on Oct 21, 2014 10:31:11 GMT
Yes but I cant remember where.
with a bit of luck someone will come along and give you a link.
Anyone remember if it is on Reaper's video discs? I've got a set I can send you if it is. I'll try to remember to check tonight.
There's nothing complicated in it, you just take bits off til you reach the pin, and then rebuild in reverse order.
Roughly, from memory, you take off the clutch cover, undo the big nut in the middle, pull out the middle of the clutch with all the plates. You now have the outer clutch basket in front of you. You undo the big nut in the middle (DO NOT try to hold the basket by jamming anything between the teeth, it is only light alloy and you may well break it - prevent movement by sticking a piece of wood through the back wheel to hold it against the swingarm). When you pull the basket out you will find the oil pump drive sprocket on the back. The loose pin will be obvious, and you replace it with a tight fit. Replace all the bits you took off, leaving none out, and bob's your uncle. I seem to recall there is a circlip somewhere along the way so you might want to get a pair of circlip pliers.
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Post by crickleymal on Oct 21, 2014 10:40:42 GMT
Ok I've done that pin about a year ago and it made no difference. The symptoms are as you explained earlier, clutch in rattle, clutch lever pulled, no rattle.
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Post by grumps on Oct 21, 2014 13:35:03 GMT
It rattles clutch in or out on tickover but goes with a few revs.
I'm ok with taking the clutch out but just want to be sure that the problem really is the oil pin.
I can only assume that carb balancing simply evens up the tickover a bit so quietens it down a little?
Thanks for the tips so far.
I have a post somewhere about the pin job so will see if I can find it and post it for others
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Post by grumps on Oct 21, 2014 14:16:06 GMT
www.xjrider.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=2963. Try this for the oil pin repair, but I'm not sure that is what mine really is. I have seen posts on carbs, starter pinions, cam tensioners and big ends! Confused.com
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Post by showaddydadito on Oct 21, 2014 15:31:46 GMT
I can only assume that carb balancing simply evens up the tickover a bit so quietens it down a little? carb balancing is worth doing regardless of rattles - if they are only a little out, and you bring them together, it makes a huge difference to the smoothness of the engine |
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Post by grumps on Oct 23, 2014 17:19:27 GMT
Anyone in the Worcester or Birmingham areas who knows what they are listening to and can help identify my rattle?
Willing to travel and buy a beer or two!
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Post by crickleymal on Oct 24, 2014 7:30:43 GMT
That rules me out, I'm in the area but know nothing much.
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Post by grumps on Oct 24, 2014 7:36:05 GMT
Ha. Next!!
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Post by grumps on Jan 20, 2015 19:40:08 GMT
Anyone in the Worcester or Birmingham areas who knows what they are listening to and can help identify my rattle? Willing to travel and buy a beer or two! This job is coming to the top of the list now but I really need to know if it is likely to be the oil pin. Pulling in the clutch does not stop the rattle at tickover. Anyone local??? Cheers David |
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Post by CD on Jan 25, 2015 11:07:56 GMT
If the rattle is changes with clutch in or out then it's the clutch. If it stays the same its not the clutch.
The oil pin has to be a tight fit or the new pin will just fret and rattle like the old one.
Also check the starter gears. IIRC someone posted about a problem in there.
The 600 clutch release bearing never sees any oil so runs dry. While it's open, fit a new thrust bearing. If the cover is worn use a new washer on both sides of the rollers. Use a sticky high temperature grease.
On the same subject, check the clutch release shaft bearings. When they wear the top seal fails allowing water into the engine. They are needle rollers so any slack = worn out. Again use a sticky high temperature grease. I would consider a high solids anti seize grease because it won't rub out of the rollers as easily as normal grease.
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Post by grumps on Feb 3, 2015 16:18:37 GMT
Ok, so I have removed the clutch basket and there is a lot of slop between the pin and gear slot. I'm onto that with various suggestions of roll pins etc.
Whilst i was there:-
There is play in the oil pump gear and the oil pump shaft. It is a D shaped fitting between the gear and the shaft and only held on by a circlip. Is this play normal?
The oil pump shaft also moves a mm or two along its length (in & out). Is this normal?
The primary drive was slightly rotating on its shaft but I re-torqued that so that should be OK.
Thanks
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Post by grumps on Feb 3, 2015 16:19:44 GMT
If the rattle is changes with clutch in or out then it's the clutch. If it stays the same its not the clutch. The oil pin has to be a tight fit or the new pin will just fret and rattle like the old one. Also check the starter gears. IIRC someone posted about a problem in there. The 600 clutch release bearing never sees any oil so runs dry. While it's open, fit a new thrust bearing. If the cover is worn use a new washer on both sides of the rollers. Use a sticky high temperature grease. On the same subject, check the clutch release shaft bearings. When they wear the top seal fails allowing water into the engine. They are needle rollers so any slack = worn out. Again use a sticky high temperature grease. I would consider a high solids anti seize grease because it won't rub out of the rollers as easily as normal grease. Just spotted your post CD. Thanks for that and whilst everything is out I'll do all that. Again, thanks |
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Post by grumps on Feb 14, 2015 10:23:23 GMT
Ok, I went ahead and ordered a new oil pump shaft, gear, pin and seals. Absolutely no difference!  There is just as much play in the fit between the gear and shaft as there is on the old one. The shaft has a flat ground on one side to form a D shape. The gear has a D shaped centre hole. I expected the shaft to be a snug fit onto the shaft, but no, there is significant slop in the fit so I'm guessing that this is designed or normal. That's a Euro 76 lesson! I did change the two seals behind the pump and checked for damage but all seems well. So, back on with the pump with the new parts. As to the pin that drives the gear behind the clutch basket I have given that to an engineer neighbour to see if he can drill the hole out a bit and drive in a larger pin. If not it will be the roll pin fix for me too. I'm not an engineer but the whole design of the clutch basket and oil pump drive does seem a little 'sloppy' in design. Still, that's motorbikes for you. |
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Post by crickleymal on Feb 16, 2015 11:42:41 GMT
Mine had similar slop in the oil pump drive. When I get the engine out I'll try to find out why it went bang. Not saying it is related mind.....
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Post by grumps on Feb 17, 2015 9:03:17 GMT
I hope it's not related.
It is odd that slop is built into the design unless it really is about expansion.
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Post by crickleymal on Feb 17, 2015 19:19:29 GMT
I hope not too. I've posted a picture of the bit that fell out of the hole in the engine ion the Divvy down and out thread.
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Post by grumps on Feb 18, 2015 8:25:33 GMT
Update
I have had the roll pin fix done to the clutch/oil gear assembly. It is a tight fit in both the hole and the slot in the drive gear.
Assuming the possible need for expansion it now has nowhere to go now re expansion when hot so what will happen? Failure or cracking of the gear? There is no slop whatsoever when cold. Not fitted yet!
Anyone done this tight roll pin fix and what has been the result?
Many thanks
David
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Post by bobh on Feb 18, 2015 18:52:40 GMT
I would guess that there's enough flex in the roll pin to take up any differential expansion. But anyway, all the parts should run at around the same temperature, so, being steel (I assume), they should expand equally.
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Post by grumps on Feb 26, 2015 18:32:16 GMT
Right, all installed back, fresh oil and new oil pump drive gear, spindle and pin.
It is much quieter but there is still some rattle mainly from the nearside and which goes away when the clutch is pulled in.
So, that needs investigating - any ideas? I will trawl the forum but a pointer would be much appreciated.
I think a carb balance is due next.
Cheers
David
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Post by dorkvonwaterfall on Feb 28, 2015 7:22:56 GMT
i just weldet the pin on my Divvy....then there was silence.....
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Post by CD on Mar 6, 2015 8:50:50 GMT
The shaft and gear could be drilled in place and taper reamed. Then fit a taper pin. Another option is Dutch dowelling. No link because google insists on translating Dutch.  Drill into shaft end at the join line so the drill cuts half into shaft and half into gear. Tap a suitable thread and fit a high tensile grub screw. Drilling at the D flat may be the best place. You could maybe fit another at opposite side if there is space. |
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