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Post by jon326 on Jan 17, 2011 19:10:14 GMT
Hi I use my divvy to go to and from work (a 3 mile each way jump) and rarely for anything else. The bike stood over winter and I swapped out the oil / filter before use etc. The usual white gunk is visible under the oil filler cap and in the oil level window so I decided to wash all the salt and crud from all the snow off the bike and take it for a bit of a blast to (hopefully) get rid of the mayo. I washed the bike down (using a power washer but on a wide spray), WD40's the relevant electrical bits, checked the tyres and set off. I'm not a speed demon and had a gereral bimble out in the lanes for about 25 miles. All seemed well until I got to the last roundabout of a dual carriageway. I changed up from 2nd to 3rd and a 'funny noise' was heard, nothing crunchy or explosive, more a slipping sound. BUT after that, gearchanges suddenly became really hard. I had to get home and pressed on gently but after a little while, the changing became harder and harder until all i could get was 1st or 2nd. I pulled up, turned off and checked oil levels etc (the mayo was still there), all seemed ok visually. After about 5mins I tried jiggling the gear pedal and it seemed to click up and down ok so I tried to get home. within a few hundred yards, the same thing. No matter how much effort, the pedal just wouldn't move and I could only get 1st or 2nd. The clutch seems to be working as, when it is in gear, pulling the clutch in will remove the drive to the wheel. Even cooled down, I can only get it into 1st or 2nd, it simply wont engage into anything higher (no noises or grinding). I'm not a mechanic so can only think....GEARBOX!!! which is a depressingly expensive sounding word. HELP!!  |
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Post by stevie16v on Jan 17, 2011 19:16:13 GMT
It could be the gear selector drum, gear pinion, or at a push the clutch release bearing, but i would doubt it. the clutch plates may also be stuck together. I'd probably recommend giving it to a friend with mechanical knowledge if you aren't too sure. they're both diy able and not particularly expensive.
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Post by amorti on Jan 17, 2011 22:26:12 GMT
Start by checking the sprocket carrier bearing. I'm being optimistic here, I don't really think it's that, but it's cheap and easy to fix if it is.
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Post by jon326 on Jan 17, 2011 23:09:32 GMT
Thanks for the responses. While I'm not a mechanic, I'm reasonably able to wield a spanner. The big prob is that the bike isn't worth much, so I'm a bit loathe to spend much at a garage. Could you talk me through both of the possible fixes (how to get at the parts etc) and I'll give it a shot. I'm wondering if some water has got in when I was washing it and has had an affect. The noise it made sounded clutchy rather than geary as I would expect more of a clatter if a gear/bearing died, however, as pulling the clutch lever disengages the drive I dont know if it could be clutch related. The gear selector or sprocket carrier sound likely and I'm happy to have a shot at a repair/rebuild if either of you could point me in the right direction?
Thanks for the help and advice.
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Post by bobh on Jan 17, 2011 23:15:34 GMT
First step would be to get a Haynes manual and/or a copy of the club's DVD (not sure if that covers these jobs though).
Whereabouts are you?
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Post by jon326 on Jan 17, 2011 23:49:43 GMT
I'm in Abergavenny, South Wales. I've looked at the Reaper DVD's, they cover the clutch assembly but nothing to do with the gears. I'll have to get the Haynes manual and settle down to a lengthy period of 4 wheels! (Which is a pity as I bought a new helmet yesterday!) I think I'll have the clutch cover off 1st just to visually check there's nothing glaringly obvious that I should be able to sort out from all the other clutch related posts.
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Post by amorti on Jan 18, 2011 8:33:16 GMT
Clutch release bearing? That turned out to be an easy fix. There's a thread on here about it, start by drainging the oil and removing the clutch cover, it'll be fairly obvious if that's your problem.
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Post by stevie16v on Jan 18, 2011 11:09:39 GMT
If you can pm me your email address I'll sort something tonight fir you when I'm home. As amortise says, clutch release bearing is an easy fix, plenty on here about it
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Post by cam7777 on Jan 18, 2011 11:46:58 GMT
Change the oil and filter before panicking, if it's still the same, then panic. Also check your chain for seizure. HTH  |
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Post by jon326 on Jan 18, 2011 18:17:18 GMT
OK, the latest episode... I drained the oil today and it was cloudy and smelt of petrol! A mate had a similar issue on his bandit and it was a diaphram on the petrol tap that had failed and allowed seepage, could this be part of the prob?
I've had the clutch cover off and had a peek. There was a fair bit of mayo on the inside of the cover, the plates look ok (as far as I can tell) but there was the remnants of something which looked like a small metal shim (with teeth on the interior of it) the shim would possibly have been about 1cm diameter when it was alive.
The springs look a bit worn on the ends and are are white over most of the surfaces.
This is as far as I have got today...
In reply to Cam7777, the chain is fine (the panic has already arrived!)
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Post by bobh on Jan 18, 2011 22:06:36 GMT
Hmmm - 1 cm diameter. Might be part of the cage from the upper needle roller bearing on the release spindle, the one that goes through the upper side of the clutch housing and has the cable arm on the top end of it.
Now you've got the cover off, check to see if there's any sideways play in that bearing. It's quite a common problem, the bearing wears and/or corrodes, side play develops, the oil seal can't cope and starts to leak, rainwater gets into the bearing and before you know it it's rattling around and not transmitting the cable movement into the clutch release puller.
If there is any play, it's probably a new upper bearing and oil seal, and possibly a new spindle, depending on whether it's worn - or you might be able to get the old one built up and reground. The lower bearing should be alright, and anyway it's a pig to remove. Use plenty of grease when reassembling as it doesn't get lubricated well enough by the oil.
Of course, it could be something completely different!. In any case it would be worth taking the clutch apart and checking the release bearing at the back, as well as the plates and springs.
The oil smelling of petrol may just be that you've been had use the choke a lot on your short journey. If the petrol tap wasn't shutting off properly I'd expect to smell petrol around the bike all the time.
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Post by jon326 on Jan 18, 2011 22:25:11 GMT
When I took the spindle out, the assembly seemed to be ok, I'll check the play tomorrow but I think it was fairly snug and the seal was in good condition.
The smell in the oil was stronger than I'd expect and definitely came from the oil itself (in the bowl the oil went into away from the bike) and the colour of the oil was like chocolate sauce (not just dirty oil).
As I looked into the clutch casing, I noticed that there is a gear in the lower right hand corner (behind the plate housing cage) the gear is about 6cm diameter and there is a lot of play when I get hold and give it a wobble. I've taken out the clutch plates etc and have got to the section where there is a large nut holding the rest of it in (I dont know the size of the nut).
I've order the Haynes manual now to help me know what the parts actually are.
As I go I'm going to replace any of the dodgy bits and do the mods etc. So I can see this is going to be a project.
Thanks for all the advice so far, really appreciated and I'm taking it all on board and will keep you updated as the nightmare continues.
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Post by amorti on Jan 19, 2011 8:28:02 GMT
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Post by jon326 on Jan 19, 2011 17:09:31 GMT
Amorti, you are, indeed, a god. Looking at the thread shows that the shim i previously mentioned is obviouslt the earthly remains of the needle bearing (all that was there was the thrust rod and washer!! That can't be a good thing. I'll get the bearing and do the 2 washer/grease mod.
However, this still technically shouldn't be the whole problem...should it? I ought to be able to change gear without the clutch and there's the petrolly smelling, choccy sauce coloured oil issue too! (It never ends)
I'm going to strip out the fuel tap and see what condition the diaphrams are.
I'll update as soon as.
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Post by amorti on Jan 19, 2011 18:49:28 GMT
With that washer gone, the clutch basket keeps spinning with the engine, but it will make it seriously difficult to change gear considering the extra friction between the pushrod and gearbox side of the clutch. It could plausibly make it impossible to engage a gear, but it does seem unlikely. I would be wondering where the rest of the washer went? Definitely time to change the oil, if not time to drop the sump and fish out the little frags.
Apart from that the standard bits to check are sprocket bearings, lube pedal and linkage.
I think you can leave the tap be, as my logic says even if the diaphragm failed, fuel wouldn't get any further than the pump? I could be wrong there. Do check the carb floats aren't sticking open though.
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Post by jon326 on Jan 19, 2011 19:55:36 GMT
Amorti, Oil is out, filter off and washer/thrust bearing kit on order from simply bearings. I'll also be investing in some new clutch springs and clutch cable. Is it ok to use coper grease to load up on the washers etc or does it need to be something else. I'm happy to drop the sump too but do I need to detach the exhaust to do that? I've got the Haynes on order so I guess that'll be answered in there.
I hear what you are saying about the fuel diaphragms but am still a bit concerned over the state of the oil when I drained it.
I'll get the bits, go through the manual to makes sure everything else seems in order and reassemble in reverse order!
fingers crossed.
It had better work, I ordered a new helmet the day before it went bang! ha ha
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Post by amorti on Jan 19, 2011 20:06:05 GMT
Don't put copper grease on them! anything but that. It's an anti-seize, not a grease as such. The copper will act as a very fine grinding paste.
I guess you can see a certain way into the engine through the clutch cover, anything shiny in the sump? You're right you would need to remove the exhaust which comes with its own set of seized nut and snapped stud pain.
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Post by jon326 on Jan 19, 2011 21:31:18 GMT
No copper grease then! I'll fish around in the sump with an extendable magnet then, rather than embark on what would defifitely be another FIY project!!! Any suggestions on the grease?
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Post by amorti on Jan 19, 2011 22:29:50 GMT
No copper grease then! I'll fish around in the sump with an extendable magnet then, rather than embark on what would defifitely be another FIY project!!! Any suggestions on the grease? Personally I would go with any kind of mineral grease that's lying around. I usually slop some out of a big bucket of old-school axle grease in my dad's shed. TBH, it's going to get slung out quite quickly anyway, you just need to give it a fighting chance from the off, before any engine oil is splashed in there. I would use mineral grease since that will mix with the engine oil once it gets spun out of the bearing which it certainly will. Unsure as to whether lithium or silicon grease would? |
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Post by bobh on Jan 20, 2011 11:08:01 GMT
I think any ordinary lithium-based general-purpose grease, e.g. Catrolease LM, will do. It will mix with engine oil without contaminating it in the sort of quantity we're talking about here - it is just thickened mineral oil anyway. Calcium-based grease (Castrolease CL) would also be OK - it's stickier, but has a lower melting point. Really, it's whatever you've got, or can get easily.
As Amorti says, avoid any fancy grease such as copper, black moly/white PTFE stuff etc.
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Post by jon326 on Jan 20, 2011 19:49:29 GMT
I'll get some suitable grease tomorrow. I've all the bits on order but doubt I'll get a chance to crack on for a few days.
Are there any ideas on the oil being cloudy? I'd like to get the thing fixed in one go, my worry is that I'll get it all back together and find I need to do something else!
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Post by stevie16v on Jan 20, 2011 21:10:53 GMT
It could be cloudy due to the condensation getting in through the knackered bearing. With the really cold weather it wouldnt surprise me
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Post by bobh on Jan 20, 2011 22:04:21 GMT
Used bike oil always does seem to be cloudy and brown, whereas from a car it's more gooey and black.
I've put the difference down to there being tiny wear particles from the clutch plates in the bike oil. Also, if the oil was Castrol GPS (or whatever they've re-branded it as) that starts off a reddish-brown colour anyway.
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Grumbleweed
Boy Racer
Grumbleweed, 2009 model XJ6S, brought new in 2010.
Posts: 229
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Post by Grumbleweed on Jan 21, 2011 20:26:18 GMT
This is my experience - others will be different:
I found my clutch bearings went more often the less I rode my old divvy. When I first got it and rode it for fun (and changed the oil every 6 months) it was fine but as time went on I didn't ride it so much and the oil changes got less frequent and my problems started. Once you start seeing mayo it's only a (short) matter of time before the bearing goes. The first one lasted years and the second to last one a few months. I don't know how long the last one has lasted as I chopped the XJ600S for a XJ6S as I couldn't hack it anymore!
Good luck with the rebuild.
Grum.
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Post by cam7777 on Jan 21, 2011 22:05:04 GMT
Is your vacuum petrol tap working correctly? pull off the pipe and ensure petrol does not come out.
A flooding carb can, and will allow fuel into the oil which is bad news.
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Post by bobh on Jan 21, 2011 22:33:53 GMT
Is your vacuum petrol tap working correctly? pull off the pipe and ensure petrol does not come out. That's with the tap in the "On" or "Reserve" positions, obviously. |
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Post by jon326 on Jan 22, 2011 12:28:14 GMT
Cam/Bobh, thanks for that (it was the thing bothering me before the rebuild). I now have, Haynes manual, gaskets, upgraded washer/bearing kit, semi synth oil / filter, new clutch springs, clutch cable, extendable magnet to fish out any swarf and lithium based hi temp grease... and, of course all your tips. I'm hoping to get at it tomorrow but if not next week sometime.
According to the trouble shooting section of the Haynes, the clutch seems to be the solid bet. I'll update as soon as I've done the work!
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Post by jon326 on Jan 23, 2011 19:19:14 GMT
Ha ha! Well the disaster continues...I stripped it all down, got all the swarf and little bits of needle roller out etc but when I went to reassemble the clutch springs one of them must have been gash and it sheared as I torqued it up!!! I'm now going to have to strip out the clutch assembly and drill out the remnants, tap up the shaft (i expect) and get some quality spring bolts! The problem is, my socket set is too small to fit the centre nut holding the basket in, Does anyone (silly question, of course one of you will!) know the size of the nut so I can get the right socket?
I may as well do the dowl pin mod while I'm in there then!
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Post by amorti on Jan 24, 2011 14:39:30 GMT
Ha ha! Well the disaster continues...I stripped it all down, got all the swarf and little bits of needle roller out etc but when I went to reassemble the clutch springs one of them must have been gash and it sheared as I torqued it up!!! I'm now going to have to strip out the clutch assembly and drill out the remnants, tap up the shaft (i expect) and get some quality spring bolts! The problem is, my socket set is too small to fit the centre nut holding the basket in, Does anyone (silly question, of course one of you will!) know the size of the nut so I can get the right socket? I may as well do the dowl pin mod while I'm in there then! Bugger! Is there enough material to go out to M8 or will you have to fit a helicoil? S'pose while you've got the clutch off you'd be daft not to sort the pin issue out. I had the clutch out on my Cb-1 a couple of weekends back. You will struggle a lot if you don't have a rattle gun (impact wrench) to help you out. A cheap one will do it... cgi.ebay.co.uk/12V-VOLT-IMPACT-WRENCH-SOCKETS-CIR13C-4500610-CLARKE-/120629369525?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item1c16121ab5but I expect you'd need a bigger socket than that, even on my little 400 it was a 27mm nut. |
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Post by jon326 on Feb 1, 2011 19:49:07 GMT
Hi all! The bike is back together. I managed to strip out the clutch assembly and was expecting to have a real issue getting the remains of the bolt out but, amazingly, as I started to drill out the bolt, it somehow acted as a removal tool and the bolt unscrewed (the first bit of good luck I had) the problem was that, trying to torque up to 7nm's with a standard torque wrench was impossible and I'd gone a bit ott obviously.
The clutch death rattle pin was loose, as you'd expect so I used a 6mm drill to replace it and it is super snug now thanks to a bit of angle grinding on the shaft of the drill and cutting it down just right (luck...not judgement).
I reassembled in reverse order, as per Haynes, all except torquing the spring bolts which I've done by eye/hand.
New clutch cable
New coach bolts
New thrust bearing/2 washers/loads of grease
new gasket (remains of old one scraped off, wet and dry'd,white spirited)
everything thoroughly cleaned and new filter, semi synth oil.
moment of truth......
Stuck on the new Caberg lid I bought the day before it went bang, turned it over..........IT WORKED!
In truth I was expecting a huge bang. bits everywhere, a severed leg, and then a phone call to my buddy who is selling his Bandit.
I've taken it out for a 20 minute spin and it is 90% there. I am finding that in, say, 4th gear if I give a bit of a heavy twist on the throttle the clutch is slipping a little bit (over revving then catching and settling down) but I'm hoping that will be possibly an adjustment on the cable (its biting right at the far end of the release and is very stiff at the moment) or down to using so much grease everywhere.
So, in summary, thanks so much for all the excellent suggestions and support. I'm hoping its going to settle down (the idle is fantastically quiet after the pin mod).
My mate with the Bandit is dissapointed so if any of you want an absolute bargain 600, give me a shout and I'll put you in touch!
I'll update after I adjust the clutch travel etc.
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