Yamaha Diversion - starting problems

[jimster99]

Hi all, happy new Yamaha Diversion owner here!

However....my new (old) 2001 Yamaha Diversion which I picked up on Friday won't start on the button after I dropped it at stationary.

It was working fine, but (i) I put a little more oil in (not too much, but close to being overfilled) and (ii) while doing a very slow u-turn, I dropped the bike on its right side (breaking off the indicator and a bit of the brake lever). No other visible damage.

When I picked it up, it struggled to start on the button, and ran if I gave it revs but then stalled immediately the throttle was released. This happened a few times.

Now when I press the starter button it just clicks. Sometimes there is a slight whooshing sound, which then goes away.

I can bump start it and then it runs fine. I took it out for about 45 minutes to see if the battery was flat but it is still difficult to start.

It's difficult to get the bike into / out of gear when the engine is off (which it wasn't before I dropped it). When I push the gear lever it just bounces back and doesn't shift. However, when I get the bike running (by bumping it) the bike changes gear fine. I find this very odd.

I also accidentally turned on the indicators and the broken bulb gave off a lot of smoke. I've stuck a new bulb on and it works fine now.

I will take the bike into a shop and get it fixed, but would appreciate suggestions as to what may be wrong.

Possible options:
(i) flat battery (but wouldn't a 45 minute run cure it, and why did it only flatten after I dropped it?)
(ii) damaged clutch (but why does the bike change gear once the bike is running?)
(iii) damaged electricals (fuse) from using the indicator with a damaged bulb?

[CD]

It could be dirt in the carbs that's been dislodged when it fell over and is now making it run roughly. Another option is dodgy wiring that was ok until the knock moved something. If a wire has worn through its insulation or a plug isnt contacting properly, even a small bump can finish the job.

[jimster99]

Thanks very much! Can the carbs cause poor starting but the bike to then run fine once bump started?

I'll try and (i) work out where the carbs are and (ii) get them off for a clean at the weekend. Wish me luck!

[m40man]

Jun 16, 2010 0:44:22 GMT jimster99 said:

... Can the carbs cause poor starting but the bike to then run fine once bump started?

If the bike starts & runs OK when cold, when bump-started, then no. The means of starting should make no difference. I recommend that you resist removing the carbs for a clean just yet & instead concentrate on .....

Jun 16, 2010 0:44:22 GMT jimster99 said:

Now when I press the starter button it just clicks. Sometimes there is a slight whooshing sound, which then goes away.

Check your connections & wiring from battery to starter solenoid, connections to the starter motor, etc for anything weak or corroded which the fall may have made worse. For good measure, also stick the battery on charge for a couple of hours.

[Deleted]

At pains not to be seen to agree with M40man.

Check the Battery, the initial drop will have drained the carbs and extra battery power was used in trying to start if the battery was already low then you may have killed it.

With smoke coming from the indicator you may also have had a short in that area give the electrics a once over. That would also be a drain on your battery. I don't think the carbs sound bad as the bike runs OK after bumping.

[HRHpenfold]

Jun 14, 2010 9:59:53 GMT jimster99 said:

Hi all, happy new Yamaha Diversion owner here!

However....my new (old) 2001 Yamaha Diversion which I picked up on Friday won't start on the button after I dropped it at stationary.

It was working fine, but (i) I put a little more oil in (not too much, but close to being overfilled) and (ii) while doing a very slow u-turn, I dropped the bike on its right side (breaking off the indicator and a bit of the brake lever). No other visible damage.

When I picked it up, it struggled to start on the button, and ran if I gave it revs but then stalled immediately the throttle was released. This happened a few times.

Now when I press the starter button it just clicks. Sometimes there is a slight whooshing sound, which then goes away.

I can bump start it and then it runs fine. I took it out for about 45 minutes to see if the battery was flat but it is still difficult to start.

It's difficult to get the bike into / out of gear when the engine is off (which it wasn't before I dropped it). When I push the gear lever it just bounces back and doesn't shift. However, when I get the bike running (by bumping it) the bike changes gear fine. I find this very odd.

I also accidentally turned on the indicators and the broken bulb gave off a lot of smoke. I've stuck a new bulb on and it works fine now.

I will take the bike into a shop and get it fixed, but would appreciate suggestions as to what may be wrong.

Possible options:
(i) flat battery (but wouldn't a 45 minute run cure it, and why did it only flatten after I dropped it?)
(ii) damaged clutch (but why does the bike change gear once the bike is running?)
(iii) damaged electricals (fuse) from using the indicator with a damaged bulb?

Theres also nothing wrong with the gears or clutch, sometimes they go into gear when the engine is not running and sometimes they dont, they are all like that and not odd at all, you probably need a new battery, as its weak

[jimster99]

Thanks for all the helpful answers! I had another go on the bike this evening...when I press the starter button there is a loud 'click' from a black box underneath the seat (which I assume is the starter motor?) but nothing else.

When I bump start the bike it takes a couple of gos - but then it gets going and the bike runs perfectly.

I tested the battery with a volt meter and it briefly showed 12.9 volts before (ironically) the volt meter battery suddenly died. I will re-test at the weekend. However, the bike battery looks like it is a fairly new one.

I think the problem must be either

(i) I have a bad battery and dropping the bike somehow finished it off (although I rode for 80 miles on saturday night, and started the bike about 20 times without any problems during that period, so I am a little sceptical) or

(ii) I have (as suggested by the kind forum members) damaged some electrical part of the starter.

PS I took the bike for a 45 minute ride tonight and the starter still didn't work - I expect a 45 minute journey would have charged the battery up at least a bit.

[CD]

The click from the starter happens when the bike battery is flat.

Try some jump leads from a car battery. DONT RUN THE CAR ENGINE.

If the bike starts, your bike battery has failed. Batteries dont like being stored and unused.

Also check the generator voltage with the engine running (Yamaha say 14V @ 3000 rpm is correct). If the regulator has failed the engine will run but the system voltage goes too high and kills the battery. Make sure you rev it above 3000.

This might help
www.landiss.com/battery.htm

[jimster99]

Righty ho. I tested the bike battery and it is showing 12.9 volts across the terminals.

When I bump start the bike, at 900rpm the battery is showing 14 volts across the terminals. (No need to rev it to 3000rpm!)

Therefore I assume there is nothing wrong with my battery. Is that right? If it was flat it wouldn't be showing 12.9 volts I guess.

However, my bike still won't start - just a clicking from the box near the battery.

Grrr. On the other hand, I think it is likely to be easy to fix - once I work out what's wrong. I'm guessing it's a loose wire somewhere...how do I trouble shoot this problem?

Thanks all!!

[jimster99]

Further update: I tried jump starting the bike using my car battery - nothing changed.

[chunk166]

I'm not too good with bikes,but you say "the black box clicks when trying to start" i think you men solenoid the starter motor is a long round cylinder on the left side of the engine above the gearbox, i would check the connections on there to see if their loose or corroded! the reason i say this is because you can bump start ,but not start it on the button, you have power to the solenoid but not the starter motor by the sounds of it.i had a similar problem when my starter motor played up! i hope this helps,i'm sure others will be along to answer.

Ray

[Padster]

It is worth checking the starter motor connections first then have a look at the starter itself. It isn't difficult to dismantle and see if the brushes etc are OK. On my red D9 I had a lot of trouble with similar starting problems and the starter had broken up a bit internally! A replacement (second hand) starter sorted it.

[teejayexc]

Hi Jimster, I'm assuming it's a 600 you have ? (seeing as how it's posted in the 600 Tech section )

Try having a look at this thread about a similar issue;

diversionclub.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=600&action=display&thread=9702

Hth, Trev

[jimster99]

Thanks all - I'm leaning now towards (i) broken starter or (more likely) (ii) a loose connection between the solenoid and the starter!

Will have a poke around tomorrow morning...

PS I really appreciate the patient replies :-) motor

[snookybiker]

Definitely sounds like the starter motor. B4 taking the starter motor out which is fairly simple try giving it a sharp tap with a hammer - put a bit of wood between the starter motor and the hammer to stop any dents. If the starter motor has frozen this usually frees it up. I've had the same problem twice and this has cured it.

[jimster99]

Love the suggestion about the hammer and piece of wood....will be up at the crack of dawn to give this a try!! Wish me luck :-)

[jimster99]

OK, latest update - I only had time for a quick look but managed to eliminate a few possible causes of starting problems using my voltmeter.

When I press the starter button, there is 12 volts coming out of the solenoid, and similarly 12 volts showing at the connection into the starter motor. Therefore, I think the solenoid is fine, and the starter motor is probably the culprit. I will try and get this off tomorrow for a quick look.

I tried whacking the starter motor with a rubber hammer, no effect. It's quite difficult to hit it properly because of space. I only could hit it on the end.

Also, I noticed a 1 foot long rubber tube which is not connected to anything at one end, and at the other end is connected to the bottom of the fuel tank, near where the fuel main/reserve switch connects to the tank.

I assume this is a breather pipe or something similar. Although it seemed a little long, as if it could go into the rear wheel with a bit of bad luck.

Is this something to be worried about? Am I describing a tube which has come loose, and if so where does it go?

I will try and post a picture tomorrow.

Thanks again (in advance) for any helpful replies.... :-)

[teejayexc]

Just a breather pipe, nowt to fret about.

Have you looked at the blue wire in the connector?

diversionclub.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=600&action=display&thread=9702


hth, Trev

[jimster99]

Thanks Trev! I am just checking that now.

Another possibility has just occurred to me - the bike has a "Sola Larm" alarm fitted - from googling I see this may have an immobiliser to the starter motor. Is it possible that when I knocked the bike over I triggered the sola larm immobiliser?

The alarm itself arms and disarms without any problem.

[jimster99]

Further update...the Haynes book of lies says that when the ignition is switched on, the fuel pump should run for 5 seconds. In my case, the fuel pump doesn't appear to run.

However, given that the bike runs fine once bumped I guess the pump must be working...

PS I realise I'm jumping around a lot but this is because I don't really have a clue :-)

[CD]

That alarm has to be ruled out. What happens if you use a screwdriver to "short" the solenoid terminals? If the starter is OK it will spin and you need to check out the solenoid wiring.

The generator is probably fine, but to test it you do need to rev it above 3000rpm. The voltage should never go above 14V (maybe 14.2 tops) and you wont know for sure unless you rev it above 3000.

[jimster99]

Thanks for the further reply - I've tried shorting the solenoid and nothing happens.

I've acquired some electrical contact cleaner and some decent sockets and will try cleaning the contacts on the starter motor. If that doesn't work, I'll open the motor up and see if the bushes need replacing.

I'll test the generator again with revs above 3000rpm.

Thanks!!

[jp]

Jun 20, 2010 8:12:41 GMT jimster99 said:

Further update...the Haynes book of lies says that when the ignition is switched on, the fuel pump should run for 5 seconds. In my case, the fuel pump doesn't appear to run. However, given that the bike runs fine once bumped I guess the pump must be working...

pretty sure Haynes is wrong there. Fuel pumps are switched on by the fuel pump relay AND lack of fuel in the carbs.
From what I know about fuel pump relays they only operate when the ignition is on AND they have just received a pulse from the ignition system; they remain on for a few seconds after this pulse, a form of 'slugged' relay, then switch off unless they receive another pulse, as they will if the engine is running; for the electronics geeks its like a re-triggerable monostable .
This is borne out on my divi in that when the starter is operated the fuel pump works for a few seconds then stops (if the engine fails to start, even if the carbs aren't full) and wont operate again until the engine is turned over again. All this is to prevent the fuel pump from operating if the bike is in a crash.

[jimster99]

Thanks for the info re: the pump - good to know!

I managed to get the starter motor off last night and bashed it around a bit. I could hear something rattling inside. When I stuck it back on the bike it made a small noise for a few seconds, and then stopped again. So partial success.

I then took the motor off again but ran out of time. I will try and take it apart tonight and inspect for worn bushes. Any hints on what to look for? I'm a bit worried lots of springs and stuff will fall out!

[brandane]

Jun 23, 2010 12:44:31 GMT jimster99 said:

Thanks for the info re: the pump - good to know!

I managed to get the starter motor off last night and bashed it around a bit. I could hear something rattling inside. When I stuck it back on the bike it made a small noise for a few seconds, and then stopped again. So partial success.

I then took the motor off again but ran out of time. I will try and take it apart tonight and inspect for worn bushes. Any hints on what to look for? I'm a bit worried lots of springs and stuff will fall out!

When I had my D9, that was one of the jobs I had to do. Can't remember the details now, but as long as you follow the Haynes manual you will be fine. Don't take it apart in the kitchen like I did! Be prepared for years worth of black crud (carbon from brushes?) to come out, and it's not any old black crud. It's black crud that sticks to everything it touches and spreads, then will only shift by using WD40 to clean it off.

If you do need new brushes, they are not cheap IIRC; but no surprise there if you have owned a Yamaha for any length of time.

[bobh]

Dismantling the motor is very easy - just two through bolts and the two ends pull off. I think the bolt heads are recessed so you need a miniature socket set. The only springs are the two clock spring type ones that tension the brushes, and they are captive.

You can either replace the whole end plate, complete with holders and brushes, from Yamaha at high cost, or buy individual brushes from Wemoto for about £8 each plus carriage, and solder them in yourself. You'll need a reasonably high-powered soldering iron - a normal electronic one doesn't have enough heat sink capacity to warm up the heavy bits of metal.

[jimster99]

Woo hoo!!! SHE LIVES!!! I have fixed the problem (well, 99% anyway...the starter motor now turns over but the battery is a little flat so the bike still doesn't start. But, that's easy to fix).

My solution: take the starter motor off the bike, open it up, everything comes apart easily (just take care not to lose any of the bits!). I saw quickly that one of the brushes is wedged away from the thing it touches because of a rusty brush holder. I sprayed contact cleaner from Maplins on the rust and rubbed some of it off.

The stuck brush now goes in and out without any problems. And the motor turns over!

However, my battery is flat as the engine still didn't start. But before the starter motor was silent, now it moves, so this is definitely success :-)

Thanks all for the patient and very helpful replies...without this site I would have just given it to a bike shop to fix, and instead of spending my evenings playing with spanners for the last 10 days I could have watched the world cup. Hmmm.

Tomorrow morning I'm going to ride into work and see if the battery is flat simply because I've had the burglar alarm on for the past three days - possibly I may need a new battery (which is easy to fix). The battery is currently showing about 10.5 volts - not enough to start the bike I assume, especially if the battery is a little aged?

Now...sleep...need to be at work for a 9am meeting tomorrow.... :-(

[fazerbill]

Well done that man. I know where to send my starter motor if it gives me trouble

[CD]

Some year ago I invested in an Optimate charger. One of the most useful tools I have. It charges gently and wont over charge so its simply dropped on and forgotten about. One day I might even fit a small charging socket to the bike.

[jimster99]

I would get an optimate charger - the problem is my bike is parked outside my flat, which is on the first floor. I could easily chuck a power cable out the window to the bike, but I fear it would annoy the neighbours / electrocute someone and is therefore a bad idea.

I think the battery is duff - it dies within 2-3 days if I leave the alarm on. I will get a new one.

I have also noted that if I take the bike out for a ride, everything seems fine until I let the throttle out to above about 50%, or let the revs go above 6000rpms, when the bike starts to hesitate.

I gather from doing research and the helpful responses here that there is a 'main jet' which may have clogged up when I dropped the bike, or it may be that dirt in the carbs has shifted around. It could also be the oil or air filter (which I haven't changed yet, but plan to when I get a chance in the next couple of months).

I will take the carbs off when I get a chance and see if I can clean them out (using compressed air (or by boiling in a pan?)).

Does this sound like a sensible plan?

The bike was running fine at high revs until I tipped it over so I am pretty sure it must be something like dirt clogging up a jet, rather than a serious problem.