|
Post by iooi on Nov 26, 2012 17:56:12 GMT
Interesting to note that everyone is focusing on events on the road. Given that many events also include a stopover and event in the evening etc. Which I'm sure that one person is responsible for the booking of. Should anything kick off at one of these. Said person, or if it was mentioned that it was a biking group were meeting up. Who would the the other party be looking to claim from.
|
|
|
Post by billywhizz on Nov 26, 2012 19:26:22 GMT
been thinking a bit more about this, and yes it hurt...
If there was an accident, there are two scenarios. 1/ own fault, fell off/dropped it etc....so no claim...and how would you claim against self? ran into something /somebody....= own fault.
2/ knocked off, smidsy? other persons fault, so sue them ! thats why we have insurance in the first place.
both these are for single ride or surely even group ride, rules of the road still apply.
so this insurance covers another party?? who is not involved in actually incident? having trouble now understanding the original question !
|
|
|
Post by neilmud Lord Protector on Nov 26, 2012 20:09:22 GMT
Having read the long thread, I can see this splits the 'membership!!' It is a shame we don't have any legal bods to help us here, but a few of my thoughts.. Why is it, that this type of insurance is only available from one source? If the insurance is needed to protect admin, why do run navigators need to be BMF affiliated? (just seems a way to boost BMF members!) I have made a lot of new friends (acquaintances) since being on this forum, and have enjoyed many miles getting to and attending a run round areas of the country that I would have otherwise missed, this may (by the posts here) well stop or be greatly reduced. having said that, would 'this insurance' cover the route getting to and returning from a 'run'? I for one would still 'like' to put on a run, as well as attend others again. I would do both, with or without this insurance. Of course I could just email a bunch of friends to tell them of a forthcoming ride! Now, if these people happen to be from a forum, does that make it a 'club' run?? I often wear my YDC T shirt, while riding, so would that make my journey a 'club ride' I also often wear other 'branded' clothing, as do ALL bikers, so is that a club? there are many more questions, and probably no answers as we discuss, but a small cost to potentially stop our 'admin' from being out of pocket isn't a bad thing, don't some already contribute to the actual running of the site ? Are Volvos covered on club runs ;D Neil
|
|
|
Post by neilmud Lord Protector on Nov 26, 2012 20:20:46 GMT
It strikes me that some here are looking at this from the wrong perspective.
It is not a question of being found responsible for any mishap on a club run as has been stated attendance is voluntary and at your own risk, bikes carry their own insurance and a safety briefing is given before a run. This should be enough to cover run leaders & admin.
BUT the plaintive or their representatives may not see it as such & wish to take it to court even if they lose & they almost certainly will the costs of fighting the case will fall on the run leader/club admin this is what needs to be insured against as well as the very unlikely out come of losing the case.
Weather we like it or not there are ambulance chasers & people who see a chance to make some easy money & I would not like to see anyone here being their means to get it.
Neil
|
|
|
Post by soggybiker on Nov 26, 2012 20:41:38 GMT
Yeah the only way money is made in the uk is by putting hands in other peoples pockets. By insuring against this you validate the risk and suddenly they don't get laughed out of court because you make their arguement for them.
|
|
|
Post by neilmud Lord Protector on Nov 26, 2012 22:58:20 GMT
Yeah the only way money is made in the uk is by putting hands in other peoples pockets. By insuring against this you validate the risk and suddenly they don't get laughed out of court because you make their arguement for them. Are you prepared to fund any defence then? We are only paranoid because they are out to get us Neil
|
|
|
Post by grafeoz on Nov 26, 2012 23:05:43 GMT
I'm thinking about a class action against parents. Just think of the irresponsible and deadly results of bringing you into the world......JUST TO DIE!!!!!
I'm going for 5% of the claim when its successful.
Mmmm.... my own private jet, helicopter,boats, properties, good wine, the list is endless.
I might even buy an island.....New Zealand would be good!
|
|
|
Post by Pool Boy on Nov 26, 2012 23:30:58 GMT
A few more random (but hopefully relevant) thoughts.
In order to "sue" a run leader or Admin, they would have to be identified. Is there any way to do this? I realise that some of us know who some of the members are, and possibly have a 'phone number for them, and may even know where they live - but I can't recall ever giving my address to the forum so how identifieable am I (or any other member for that matter) ? Can one be tracked down from an IP address ? If "sued" would one actually need a lawyer to defend the case or is it so tenuous that one could defend onesself ?
I "belong to" 3 other motorbike forums on the internet all of which have runs like we do (did ?). None of them have any membership requirements, "subs" to pay, or any kind of committee stucture, but all have an admin team to run the website and keep things organised on the site. None has any form of insurance AFAIK, neither do the forum providers (ProBoards / PHP etc)
Carol is a member of a Jack Russell Forum which is run on the same lines and some of their members organise meets to walk their dogs together. Like bikers some dog owners have insurance for their pets but unlike bikers it's not a legal requirement of course. So let's say a dog causes an accident or bites another dog or owner. Are we suggesting that the administrators of the forum that facilitated the meeting could be held responsible for the outcome? I just can't see it myself, sorry.
I can't see that any court would allow such a case to proceed unless there was prima facia (SP?) evidence that the forum or its administrators incited illegal or irresponsible behaviour.
|
|
|
Post by neilmud Lord Protector on Nov 26, 2012 23:44:57 GMT
I can't see that any court would allow such a case to proceed unless there was prima facia (SP?) evidence that the forum or its administrators incited illegal or irresponsible behaviour. Nor can I but I don't have the money to fight it that far. Neil
|
|
|
Post by johnthebowman on Nov 26, 2012 23:53:35 GMT
What about "legal aid"
Certainly my court fees back in the 80s were payed by the state under the legal aid scheme.
Perhaps "legal aid" does not exist anymore, I don't know perhaps others do?
|
|
|
Post by johnthebowman on Nov 26, 2012 23:59:41 GMT
Yeah the only way money is made in the uk is by putting hands in other peoples pockets. By insuring against this you validate the risk and suddenly they don't get laughed out of court because you make their argument for them. I knew a Barrister who specializes in litigation. He told me that when sueing you always look for where the money is, like who has got insurance. I'm trying to get that same barrister to look at this thread and ask his thoughts; as mentioned before, we could do with an opinion from a professional on this thread.
|
|
|
Post by Pops on Nov 27, 2012 0:06:19 GMT
Seen somewhere new laws come into effect next April making it harder to apply and get legal aid.
|
|
|
Post by soggybiker on Nov 27, 2012 1:15:12 GMT
I really do not believe I would have to fund any defense Neil.
If say someone crashed on a run I had organized and chose to sue me solely or the YDC for organizing the run which is not a commercial enterprise and purely for the enjoyment of the thing then I do not believe I am at risk and they would be well on the way to being branded a vexatious litigator. To sue you do actually have to meet some standards that the other party can be held responsible.
The very act of insuring against such a thing helps their argument and provides a reason to seek a payout. Nobody in their right mind would sue me, I don't have real assets so their can be no financial gain for them, unless of course I am insured.
If I can be proven negligent in some way then there are already ground rules covering that and my existing motor insurance covers that.
My house insurance has far better legal cover than I have ever seen on a bike policy and as an aside I may already be covered. I would have to check.
I have had public liability insurance for activities where public have paid to watch a display or event or where I have cooked for people and they have paid to eat. Financial gain being key to this. With the reenactment where I have been involved work with horses, archery or medieval guns being fired I have usually had public liability cover. For the 20 odd years I was actively involved in semi or full contact fighting with steel weapons I was never covered against being damaged or doing damage to someone else, in part due to the costs and in part because of a quirk in English law. Do you honestly believe an insurer would pay up because you got hit with a sword while participating in a melee? I have hurt and got hurt doing this. In all that time nobody sued anyone. There was one criminal case where someone was alleged to have shot a handgun blank loaded into someones back this turned out to have a women at the root of it and the two invoved were brothers. It was thrown out of court. There was one serious accident with involved 2 members of a gun crew and a member of the public getting hurt. Of the hundreds of people I had contact with in the reenactment circle that is all I ever came across.
The gun accident proved the limitations of public liability cover and the vagaries of the French and English legal systems. At a public display where the groups concerned were paid expenses for being there, a misfire during loading cost the loader his arm and a guest from a French group his thumb. Neither sued anybody and no criminal charges or civil charges were filed over those injuries. A girl in the crowd was hit by a section of the ramrod which was destroyed in the explosion. Luckily she was taking a photo at the time as her camera probably saved her life. She sued for the loss of her camera, not her injury. It took a while but was resolved through civil court. The gun captain was held liable for the loss and the insurance compensated for the camera. Had they been able to converse directly she would have had a new camera three years earlier without lawyers making thousands of the case and the insurers being involved and he wouldn't have had to deal with the lawyer induced stress, who pretened it was a criminal not civil prosecution for 2 years.
|
|
|
Post by cam7777 on Nov 27, 2012 6:03:36 GMT
What about "legal aid" Certainly my court fees back in the 80s were payed by the state under the legal aid scheme. Perhaps "legal aid" does not exist anymore, I don't know perhaps others do? Good news.....It still exists!! www.lucozadeshop.com/?gclid=CP-i5uS87rMCFWbKtAodnw8AWQ
|
|
|
Post by johnthebowman on Nov 27, 2012 8:29:43 GMT
We clearly have two camps of opinion that appears to split the membership.
One thing perhaps we all could agree on is that we clearly need to sort this. .
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 8:41:45 GMT
Perhaps the poll should have had more options as the two options given do not leave a real choice.
If you want runs you have to have that insurance.
No point in the poll really the decision appears to have been made prior to the thread being posted.
I have voted for cease runs, though I don't attend many. If insurance is genuinely required then I'm sure there would be more than one company offering insurance. The poll is, in my opinion, rigged for a BMF yes answer. The Scottish Independence question is fairer. ;D
I asked the question on the other forums I am a member on. The opinion on there is no, insurance is not required. Forums are communication tools not clubs.
|
|
|
Post by johnthebowman on Nov 27, 2012 9:10:21 GMT
Below is a quote from Doofer's last post on this thread.
If you are dead set against the group taking out insurance of any form then please consider this... would you be prepared to take on the financial responsibility of this group and be legally named as its owner?
Doof
To save the club
I'm seriously considering taking Doofer up on this offer.
I'm no lawyer, but I'm fairly certain that slavery is not legal under UK and international law ;D
ie no one can own a group ;D I think what you really mean't to type, Jen, is the legal owner of this web space?
Now Paul has said that without insurance he would step down from his role as moderator but still stay a member.
This is not a personal attack on you, Jen, I have thought long and hard about typing this but would you consider doing the same?
I'm sure that both Paul and Jen have worked hard as moderators for the Club and I'm sure we all appreciate that.
Perhaps its time for someone else to be voted in as site moderators. Not just for the Club but for Jen too. I could be wrong Jen, only you know what you feel and you feelings are your business but I think you might be happier.
Phew
I Just wish I had a cat or dog to press the post reply button! My hands are shaking!
|
|
|
Post by neilmud Lord Protector on Nov 27, 2012 9:30:30 GMT
Had they been able to converse directly she would have had a new camera three years earlier without lawyers making thousands of the case and the insurers being involved and he wouldn't have had to deal with the lawyer induced stress, who pretened it was a criminal not civil prosecution for 2 years. See you agree with me it could have been delt with out of court but wasn't so costs were incured whatever the outcome & it is these costs we need to insure against. Do you think a lawyer is going to take it easy on you because you can't afford to fund your own lawyer,I think not. Neil
|
|
|
Post by CD on Nov 27, 2012 9:32:22 GMT
Reaper pointed out why he's not organised any runs this year. Now that I can see it his way, I would do the same. Also Neil has hit the nail on the head. Its not - "where there's a blame there's a claim" its - "who can we find to blame even if they did nothing wrong"
Insurance would take the hassle away and they have the means to deal with frivolous ambulance chasing cases.
It might even help to have these chucked out earlier then so much the better for everyone.
We should carry the insurance or stop having organised runs. If we have to ask for a small contribution from runsters then so-be-it.
Its not even costly so why all the fuss.
|
|
|
Post by HRHpenfold on Nov 27, 2012 9:32:45 GMT
I can't see that any court would allow such a case to proceed unless there was prima facia (SP?) evidence that the forum or its administrators incited illegal or irresponsible behaviour. Nor can I but I don't have the money to fight it that far. Neil being sued is a risky business, you can be sued for anything you say or do, one of the most often reasons people sue, is for defamation, I gather you and everyone on here have insurance covering such a claim, it's clearly the biggest risk of being sued, after all, even now, there's people negotiating damages payments, with individuals on twitter, who repeated things about a certain Lord, who was defamed by the BBC and ITV, and especially for management, you can be sued, for not removing material offensive to somebody, whether said by you or not, have they got plans to insure against that? would I indemnify management against that, or a claim on a club run? no, why would I accept some one else's risk! I accept my own risk every day! I would rather dot the I's and cross the T's in procedures alleviating the risk of negligence, than, just blindly pay into an insurance scheme!
|
|
|
Post by HRHpenfold on Nov 27, 2012 9:58:19 GMT
A few more random (but hopefully relevant) thoughts. In order to "sue" a run leader or Admin, they would have to be identified. Is there any way to do this? I realise that some of us know who some of the members are, and possibly have a 'phone number for them, and may even know where they live - but I can't recall ever giving my address to the forum so how identifieable am I (or any other member for that matter) ? Can one be tracked down from an IP address ? If "sued" would one actually need a lawyer to defend the case or is it so tenuous that one could defend onesself ? I "belong to" 3 other motorbike forums on the internet all of which have runs like we do (did ?). None of them have any membership requirements, "subs" to pay, or any kind of committee stucture, but all have an admin team to run the website and keep things organised on the site. None has any form of insurance AFAIK, neither do the forum providers (ProBoards / PHP etc) Carol is a member of a Jack Russell Forum which is run on the same lines and some of their members organise meets to walk their dogs together. Like bikers some dog owners have insurance for their pets but unlike bikers it's not a legal requirement of course. So let's say a dog causes an accident or bites another dog or owner. Are we suggesting that the administrators of the forum that facilitated the meeting could be held responsible for the outcome? I just can't see it myself, sorry. I can't see that any court would allow such a case to proceed unless there was prima facia (SP?) evidence that the forum or its administrators incited illegal or irresponsible behaviour. You can defend yourself, it would not be that hard, most of it is letter writing, it's in much of the same vein as refusing to pay one of these parking fines to a private company and all the threats about taking you to court, it's more risky for those that sue to reach court, as even though the evidence doesn't need to be as robust as in a criminal case it still has to be there, and it's about coughing up before court, it's never going to be a full open court case, with barristers, it will be a side room, with you the claimants solicitor and the judge, all dressed in a smart suit
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 10:19:03 GMT
it's never going to be a full open court case, with barristers, it will be a side room, with you the claimants solicitor and the judge, all dressed in a smart suit Have you seen the price of a smart suit these days, where do I get this insurance ? ;D
|
|
|
Post by Doofer on Nov 27, 2012 10:19:13 GMT
Now Paul has said that without insurance he would step down from his role as moderator but still stay a member. This is not a personal attack on you, Jen, I have thought long and hard about typing this but would you consider doing the same? There is a third option but it is not one I want to put on the table at this time, I appreciate that this is not a popular discussion, but I need to get a picture of general consensus one way or the other first. Oh and knowing what it is, I don`t want to see option 3. Have I considered handing over the group to someone else? Yes - that is option 3, I have yet to decide whether I wish to take that option. Please make sure that you understand exactly what taking on the group entails before offering to do so, if you have any questions PM me. Bev, I have asked if anyone knows of an alternative to the BMF for this cover then please let me know, if the options can be opened to allow a choice of insurers then I would happily look into that and post a re-vote so that everyone can take the opportunity to change their mind based on further information available. So I re-iterate, if anyone knows of another insurer that might provide the cover that I am suggesting then please send me the details so that I can discuss it with them and get an idea of the options and costs. Doof
|
|
|
Post by johnthebowman on Nov 27, 2012 10:52:12 GMT
Below is a part qoute from Doof Have I considered handing over the group to someone else? Yes - that is option 3, I have yet to decide whether I wish to take that option. Please make sure that you understand exactly what taking on the group entails before offering to do so, if you have any questions PM me. Thanks Jen I have no idea what moderating a group involves. I'm also a complete novice with computers. I would need training (I don't even know how quote part of someone elses post ;D) But more than any of these things I would need to be elected by members. For me I would want elections to be on an annual basis. My priority is to keep the club together. If we had two separate forums. Your and Pauls one would be insured and the other one would be for uninsured. As long as, we were linked so a potential new Divvy owner could try the other one as it were then we would all be together in two separate Clubs. That way everyone is happy ie Martins Jan Jolly would be advertised from the uninsured YDC Club. I've heard that webspace to run a forum costs about £30 per year and I can afford that. But before I take this any further I need to know how members feel about the idea?
|
|
|
Post by neilmud Lord Protector on Nov 27, 2012 11:20:21 GMT
Even if there is no case or you choose to defend your self what often seems patently obvious to anyone may still go to court.
I know of someone who has been accused of assault by his ex partner even though there are witnesses to say nothing happened, she (the ex partner ) has a history of self harming to make it look like she has been hit & showed scratches on her face to the police.
Now the police seem to think that nothing happened but the CPS are having a clampdown on domestic violence she is on benefits & gets legal aid but he has a good job & it has already cost over£3000 & won't go to court untill the new year.
There are many more aspects to this that I will not repeate here & I know this is a criminal case (but the level of proof has to be higher) but it goes to show how expensive defending your self can be even if Innocentt.
Neil
|
|
|
Post by johnthebowman on Nov 27, 2012 11:25:27 GMT
Even if there is no case or you choose to defend your self what often seems patently obvious to anyone may still go to court. I know of someone who has been accused of assault by his ex partner even though there are witnesses to say nothing happened, she (the ex partner ) has a history of self harming to make it look like she has been hit & showed scratches on her face to the police. Now the police seem to think that nothing happened but the CPS are having a clampdown on domestic violence she is on benefits & gets legal aid but he has a good job & it has already cost over£3000 & won't go to court untill the new year. There are many more aspects to this that I will not repeate here & I know this is a criminal case (but the level of proof has to be higher) but it goes to show how expensive defending your self can be even if Innocentt. Neil I see your point And Smileys springs to mind. But its all I can think of.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 11:30:10 GMT
Even if there is no case or you choose to defend your self what often seems patently obvious to anyone may still go to court. I know of someone who has been accused of assault by his ex partner even though there are witnesses to say nothing happened, she (the ex partner ) has a history of self harming to make it look like she has been hit & showed scratches on her face to the police. Now the police seem to think that nothing happened but the CPS are having a clampdown on domestic violence she is on benefits & gets legal aid but he has a good job & it has already cost over£3000 & won't go to court untill the new year. There are many more aspects to this that I will not repeate here & I know this is a criminal case (but the level of proof has to be higher) but it goes to show how expensive defending your self can be even if Innocentt. Neil So Azil Nadir gets legal aid, as do many other millionaires, but your mate doesn't Funny old world
|
|
|
Post by TwoHat on Nov 27, 2012 11:37:28 GMT
My priority is to keep the club together. If we had two separate forums. Your and Pauls one would be insured and the other one would be for uninsured. As long as, we were linked so a potential new Divvy owner could try the other one as it were then we would all be together in two separate Clubs. That way everyone is happy ie Martins Jan Jolly would be advertised from the uninsured YDC Club. I've heard that webspace to run a forum costs about £30 per year and I can afford that. Here is a forum for uninsured runs:- runs-and-meets.freeforums.net/index.cgiIt costs a grand total of nothing, and took me 5 minutes to create. It could be customised further with very little effort. The only thing I can't do is link it to this forum, so unfortunately anyone who wants to use it would have to register (takes less than 5 minutes and costs nothing). I am guessing the YDC owners wouldn't want it linking anyway in case they became liable for anything posted there Its a solution to the problem which won't cost anything, and if Doofer still wants to take out insurance to make herself vulnerable to spurious legal action - cover her donkey - make the lawyers even richer - have peace of mind, then she can and those who are against it can still organise runs at their own risk without it.
|
|
|
Post by johnthebowman on Nov 27, 2012 12:14:09 GMT
Sorted, Twohat I know I'm surrounded by computer experts. But Im still surprised such a thing can be created that quick and for no expense
|
|
|
Post by teejayexc on Nov 27, 2012 12:34:56 GMT
Perhaps the poll should have had more options as the two options given do not leave a real choice. No point in the poll really the decision appears to have been made prior to the thread being posted. The poll is, in my opinion, rigged for a BMF yes answer. The Scottish Independence question is fairer. ;D I asked the question on the other forums I am a member on. The opinion on there is no, insurance is not required. Forums are communication tools not clubs. + gazzilions !
|
|