1991 XJ600

[griffs]

Hi,

I am new to this site and new to biking. I recently acquired a 1991 XJ with 6K miles on the clock. It had stood in a friends garane gor 12 years.

After some minor work it is back on the road and rides well.

I have a few questions, which due to inexperience, I need some help with please.

When I start the bike on choke I pull it all the way out until it clicks, then bike starts immediately. However, the tickover is about 2500 rpm which seems fast (but as a car owner what do I know). Certainly too fast to drive off as it clunnks into gear. If I push the choke in slightly, I notice the plunger slowly gets drawn into the housing and unless I am riding the engine splutters and coughs. So my first question is, is this normal? What is the correct starting techbnique? Do I ride with full choke or let it run on full choke for a while, then push it in and drive off?

Another question is, can I change the fork oil without removing forks?

My brakes are pretty poor. Pistons are not stuck as I have cleaned and replaced, either the design is not up to it or the pads themselves are not good. The pads have little wear, but they are old. So I have ordered sintered pads and hopefully this should cure it, but I also read somewhere that 600 brakes are not that good. Mine has twin disks so I expect a lot.

Lastly, should I fit a scotoiler or use one of the many sprays I see advertised. At the moment I am just cleaning and re-oiling.

Sorry for the many questions. Somethings you just have to get with experience - or ask someone with experience.

Thanks.

[teejayexc]

Mar 14, 2011 16:18:50 GMT griffs said:

Hi,

I am new to this site and new to biking. I recently acquired a 1991 XJ with 6K miles on the clock. It had stood in a friends garane gor 12 years.

After some minor work it is back on the road and rides well.

I have a few questions, which due to inexperience, I need some help with please.

1) When I start the bike on choke I pull it all the way out until it clicks, then bike starts immediately. However, the tickover is about 2500 rpm which seems fast (but as a car owner what do I know). Certainly too fast to drive off as it clunnks into gear. If I push the choke in slightly, I notice the plunger slowly gets drawn into the housing and unless I am riding the engine splutters and coughs. So my first question is, is this normal? What is the correct starting techbnique? Do I ride with full choke or let it run on full choke for a while, then push it in and drive off?

2) Another question is, can I change the fork oil without removing forks?

3) My brakes are pretty poor. Pistons are not stuck as I have cleaned and replaced, either the design is not up to it or the pads themselves are not good. The pads have little wear, but they are old. So I have ordered sintered pads and hopefully this should cure it, but I also read somewhere that 600 brakes are not that good. Mine has twin disks so I expect a lot.

4) Lastly, should I fit a scotoiler or use one of the many sprays I see advertised. At the moment I am just cleaning and re-oiling.

Sorry for the many questions. Somethings you just have to get with experience - or ask someone with experience.

Thanks.

Hi Griff and welcome.

1) On the older slide choke types they did have a tendency to draw themselves in as you put it. 2,500 revs on full choke when starting seems normal enough, trick is to 'feather' the choke in gradually till she idles normally. On these types of choke I sometimes resorted to some sort of home rigged clamp to stop the choke drawing in on it's own.

2) No, forks have to come off to change oil.

3) Brakes, though not stoppie material are adequate if maintained properly. The new pads you are getting should sort it.

4) Owners choice, some like an automatic oiler some like the routine of oiling themselves

Hope you get many happy miles out your 'new' steed. with 6K on a 20 year old bike its overdue !

regards, Trev

[amorti]

Mar 14, 2011 18:52:21 GMT teejayexc said:

Mar 14, 2011 16:18:50 GMT griffs said:

Hi,

I am new to this site and new to biking. I recently acquired a 1991 XJ with 6K miles on the clock. It had stood in a friends garane gor 12 years.

After some minor work it is back on the road and rides well.

I have a few questions, which due to inexperience, I need some help with please.

1) When I start the bike on choke I pull it all the way out until it clicks, then bike starts immediately. However, the tickover is about 2500 rpm which seems fast (but as a car owner what do I know). Certainly too fast to drive off as it clunnks into gear. If I push the choke in slightly, I notice the plunger slowly gets drawn into the housing and unless I am riding the engine splutters and coughs. So my first question is, is this normal? What is the correct starting techbnique? Do I ride with full choke or let it run on full choke for a while, then push it in and drive off?

2) Another question is, can I change the fork oil without removing forks?

3) My brakes are pretty poor. Pistons are not stuck as I have cleaned and replaced, either the design is not up to it or the pads themselves are not good. The pads have little wear, but they are old. So I have ordered sintered pads and hopefully this should cure it, but I also read somewhere that 600 brakes are not that good. Mine has twin disks so I expect a lot.

4) Lastly, should I fit a scotoiler or use one of the many sprays I see advertised. At the moment I am just cleaning and re-oiling.

Sorry for the many questions. Somethings you just have to get with experience - or ask someone with experience.

Thanks.

Hi Griff and welcome.

1) On the older slide choke types they did have a tendency to draw themselves in as you put it. 2,500 revs on full choke when starting seems normal enough, trick is to 'feather' the choke in gradually till she idles normally. On these types of choke I sometimes resorted to some sort of home rigged clamp to stop the choke drawing in on it's own.

2) No, forks have to come off to change oil.

3) Brakes, though not stoppie material are adequate if maintained properly. The new pads you are getting should sort it.

4) Owners choice, some like an automatic oiler some like the routine of oiling themselves

Hope you get many happy miles out your 'new' steed. with 6K on a 20 year old bike its overdue !

regards, Trev

1) A clothes peg works on a CBR900 choke cable that is arranged similarly, might be worth a look.

2) On some forks you will get away with it, is there a drain bolt toward the bottom of the fork leg? If so you can, if not you can't. On an old bike I would tend to leave it, replace the oil at intervals decided by whenever the fork seals start leaking.

3) Don't expect too much, the brakes are small and rather low tech. In the intervening 20 years, bikes now have much bigger discs and calipers with far more pistons, and performance has improved correspondingly.

4) Scottoilers are great! once you have them set up right. They will easily double your chain life, just remember to refill them each 300 miles or it is annoying to have to bleed them. Also worth considering the Tutoro oiler, or Loobman as cheaper alternatives, and the Lubetronic which is a bit cheaper and a bit cleverer than the Scottoiler. I had one on my Triumph and it was so good I removed it and will, eventually, get around to fitting it on my little CB-1.

I don't like chain spray lubes, just because I am lazy and tend to forget, so the chain wears faster, which is expensive. If you don't mind doing it after every ride, Wuerth Profi Dry Lube is reckoned to be the best out there by some margin, but it ain't cheap.

[griffs]

Since I posted this I have replaced oil and new seals. I have also installed sintered pads.

I am manually oiling the chain and the jury is out on what approach to take longer term.


The forks are not really any better, but I have advice on another thread to 1st try thicker oil, spacers and then lastly progressive springs.


The brakes are not really fantastic. As Amorti says they will not be stoppie material, but I am not really sure how good they should be. Next stage is to remove calipers and make sure everything moves as freely as they should. Is there another way to check without stripping?

I have also stripped out the choke pin (and lost the two bearings that provide a lock), cleaned it and replaced with new bearings.

But, the choke still gets drawn in. I don't really want to use a peg and would like to get things working as meant to be. If I pull the choke out to max the engine runs about 4,000 rpm which I think is way too high. Obviously something needs setting up, but I don't see any adjustment. Is there anyway I can make an adjustment so my revs don't scream when it is out all the way?

If I slowly knock the plunger in so it is just off the stop, revs drop to about 2k (which sounds right, but then I can watch it slowly draw in until engine cuts out.

Sorry for the amount of posts from me lately, but this is a useful means of me getting some knowledge. I guess just what the forum is designed for.

[griffs]

A bit of an update and some help please.

After taking advice, Hagon springs now being ordered.

I decided to go with wax spray. Chain thoroughly cleaned (which was strangely theraputic) and now I am going to try chain wax every 500KM miles. I hope this is a good figure I picked it up somehere on this Forum. Someone please shout if this is too short.

Carb problem and headstock problem sorted and engine now running ok appart from the 4,800 vibration which I will get to the bottom of with a re-balance and possible cam shims. I even located a dyno close by so tempted by a full K&N fit with a tune. This is after I have sorted suspension and brakes.

So, these brakes that really are poor are in need of some quality TLC time before I start tweaking performance.

I am going to strip apart to ensure nothing is sticking, fit new seals and also overhaul the master cylinder. Does anyone know if 1984 - 90 master cyl seals are the same. Wemoto has them for pre 1991 but mine is a 1991. Maybe they are the same of maybe another online shop?

I also read somewhere that I may actually be better off fitting a larger MC as the one currently fitted will never generate enough pressure. I am not looking to do rear wheel lifts, but if I am doing 30 and pull with all my force, I expect some scary stuff in the stopping department.

Thanks

[bobh]

That interval is fine for lubing the chain if it's dry, but also always do it whenever you've been out in the rain or washed the bike (obviously wait until the chain is dry first).

[amorti]

Chain every 500km is fine through summer but through winter with road salt you would want to reduce that interval.

Good call on the springs.

Brakes... you will never get awesome performance as the system is underspecced compared to modern stuff. Bigger master cylinder is the wrong way to go though, almost definitely. A smaller bore master cylinder would actually increase power, at the cost that the lever would be softer-feeling; more spongey and lever travel increases. A larger bore master will give less power but a harder lever and less travel. Depends what the feel is currently like to get an idea if it needs changing. If you can measure the brake pistons and master cylinder piston I can give you an idea if the master cylinder is correctly matched. You'd be surprised but on the 92-7 single-disc divvy it was specced wrong by Yamaha and can be massively improved very cheaply.

Other than that, rebuild the lot, and fit new pads and see if that helps. Might as well thoroughly clean and degrease the discs while you are getting your fingers mucky.

[griffs]

Thanks for the offer of sizing help. I will forward this after I have stripped and rebuilt.

But any idea where I can source the parts on-line. if a 84 - 90 has same master cyl then I can get from Wemoto.

Cheers

[Deleted]

Jul 7, 2011 11:35:41 GMT griffs said:

Thanks for the offer of sizing help. I will forward this after I have stripped and rebuilt.

But any idea where I can source the parts on-line. if a 84 - 90 has same master cyl then I can get from Wemoto.

Cheers

I have no idea but if you check the frame number and compare with year markings (not reg No) you might find it's a 1990 build or the master cylinder is the same.

Actually if you check the photos on ebay etc they look to have the same reservoir.

[General Gman]

Jul 7, 2011 9:52:28 GMT amorti said:

You'd be surprised but on the 92-7 single-disc divvy it was specced wrong by Yamaha and can be massively improved very cheaply.

I'd just like to point out that this is mostly bollocks....
I've found the original master cylinder and caliper in good condition is more than adequate, and capable of lifting the rear wheel even with my portly figure on.
Apart from the ratio between caliper piston surface area and master cylinder bore / stroke, brake feel is a very subjective thing.Some like it to be like an on/off switch, some like a lever with plenty of feel

[amorti]

Jul 7, 2011 11:54:06 GMT General Gman said:

brake feel is a very subjective thing.Some like it to be like an on/off switch, some like a lever with plenty of feel

I would give you that. But I reckon 90% of folk who tried both would like the modded bike, in this case.

Giffs, not worth rebuilding the master cylinder if it would be better with a different one Have you read this thread yet?

diversionclub.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=600&action=display&thread=7510&page=1

[m40man]

Jul 7, 2011 11:54:06 GMT General Gman said:

Jul 7, 2011 9:52:28 GMT amorti said:

You'd be surprised but on the 92-7 single-disc divvy it was specced wrong by Yamaha and can be massively improved very cheaply.

I'd just like to point out that this is mostly privates....
I've found the original master cylinder and caliper in good condition is more than adequate

Both my D6's were single-disk ones & each had perfectly adequate stock front brakes too.

[General Gman]

I'd also like to point out that 'privates' is, in fact, bollocks

[m40man]

An important clarification, clearly annunciated. Thanks ;D.

[griffs]

I just read the thread Amorti. I have twin disks though and I think the other thread is relating to a single disk Divvy.

I would expect mine to be better with twin?

The general says his could almost lift hi, but also a single disk.

A little confused what to do next though. Obtain all seals and clean or get new (smaller) MC.

As I would want to swap seals on the calipers this makes more sense to start and whilst system is drained, replace MC seals at same time. If stil not satisfied then I can go down the MC swap route.

I will look to get frame no. to confirm year.

[teejayexc]

Jul 7, 2011 11:54:06 GMT General Gman said:

I'd just like to point out that this is mostly bollocks....
I've found the original master cylinder and caliper in good condition is more than adequate, and capable of lifting the rear wheel even with my portly figure on.
Apart from the ratio between caliper piston surface area and master cylinder bore / stroke, brake feel is a very subjective thing.Some like it to be like an on/off switch, some like a lever with plenty of feel

I concur, my current '95 D6 will stand you on your nose end if the brake is applied, benefitted from fluid change and caliper service when I got it. Didn't even go the braided brakeline route either.

Rear is crap though, future job

[Padster]

Your description is of a pre Divvy XJ600 if you have twin discs. The braking system bits are the same as the RD350YPVS. Your model number will confirm this. The brakes aren't that brilliant but are fine if in tip top condition. Have the brake hoses ever been changed as they lose their effectiveness after a few years? I have owned a couple fo pre Divvy XJ600s and they are fun but didn't stop as well as my single disc Divvy and I had to adjust my riding to take account of that. No idea what other brakes are compatible.

[sparky392]

I concur, my current '95 D6 will stand you on your nose end if the brake is applied, benefitted from fluid change and caliper service when I got it. Didn't even go the braided brakeline route either.

Rear is crap though, future job

Teejay, I changed both front and rear to braided, and difference was very noticable!

[teejayexc]

Jul 7, 2011 19:27:40 GMT sparky392 said:

Teejay, I changed both front and rear to braided, and difference was very noticable!

Yeh, it probably would help , trouble is it's going to be a winter hack so don't want/need to throw money at it.

To be honest it may need the m/c looking at on the rear

Ta, though